Converting on to new helicopter types
The Original Whirly
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Posts: 4,326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Converting on to new helicopter types
Greetings everyone. Many of you will know me from way back, but ! haven't been here much recently - life kind of took over....
However, I could now do with some help/info. As some of you know, I write regularly for several aviation magazines. One of them wants an article on converting to new helicopter types. My original thought was piston to turbine and similar, but what the editor then actually said was: "What I would really like is to know what is coming and how this is going to affect pilots changing from the old stuff to the new."
So I think we're talking glass cockpits, other new instrumentation, and maybe other new stuff; I don't really know. I always write from my own experience, and don't have much experience of cutting edge kind of stuff here.
So this is where I'm hoping some of you experts can help. Can you tell me what it was like converting on to something 'new'. Despite what I just said, it doesn't have to be all that new; I'm actually interested in any conversion type experiences, and maybe particularly how it affected you when you had to get out there and do a long flight or work in a new type with very few hours under your belt.
I'd like to use some quotes, but that's up to you. They'll be anonymous - after all, I don't know who most of you are! However, if you're happy to be quoted by name, country, gender, or any other identifying feature, let me know (here or by pm). Conversely, if you don't want to be quoted even anonymously, that's fine, just say so. All information will be useful and help me to get this right.
Looking forward to coming back here again a bit more often....
Whirly
However, I could now do with some help/info. As some of you know, I write regularly for several aviation magazines. One of them wants an article on converting to new helicopter types. My original thought was piston to turbine and similar, but what the editor then actually said was: "What I would really like is to know what is coming and how this is going to affect pilots changing from the old stuff to the new."
So I think we're talking glass cockpits, other new instrumentation, and maybe other new stuff; I don't really know. I always write from my own experience, and don't have much experience of cutting edge kind of stuff here.
So this is where I'm hoping some of you experts can help. Can you tell me what it was like converting on to something 'new'. Despite what I just said, it doesn't have to be all that new; I'm actually interested in any conversion type experiences, and maybe particularly how it affected you when you had to get out there and do a long flight or work in a new type with very few hours under your belt.
I'd like to use some quotes, but that's up to you. They'll be anonymous - after all, I don't know who most of you are! However, if you're happy to be quoted by name, country, gender, or any other identifying feature, let me know (here or by pm). Conversely, if you don't want to be quoted even anonymously, that's fine, just say so. All information will be useful and help me to get this right.
Looking forward to coming back here again a bit more often....
Whirly
The most memorable conversion for me so far is the AS350. They're so quick I initially struggled to keep up with it, it was like learning to fly all over again. My next 2 weeks were spent on a contract involving confined space arrivals/departures at close to MAUW & I fell in love with that helicopter. They're like a corn fed race horse, very touchy & always ready to go full speed.
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Florida/Sandbox/UK
Posts: 324
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Whirly
For me, a helicopter is a helicopter, I love them all. Changing helicopters is like changing cars, it is pretty much the same thing as before but now you have some better toys, maybe a sunroof, tints and a lot more oomph.
I have been fortunate enough to fly many different types and am now flying mostly the AW139. It is an amazing machine and I put that down to the on board toys (FMS, FD, Glass, redundancy), tons of oomph and startling OEI performance. It's still a helicopter, just like all the others, but the toys are the top-of-the-line. A little overwhelming at first, but now I know where to look, fffffantastic.
Tam
I have been fortunate enough to fly many different types and am now flying mostly the AW139. It is an amazing machine and I put that down to the on board toys (FMS, FD, Glass, redundancy), tons of oomph and startling OEI performance. It's still a helicopter, just like all the others, but the toys are the top-of-the-line. A little overwhelming at first, but now I know where to look, fffffantastic.
Tam
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Below Escape Velocity
Posts: 416
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Reminds me of what Chesty Puller was reputed to have said upon seeing his first flamethrower... "Where do you put the bayonet?"
In all glass (like the AW139...) you end up asking yourself... "Where did they put the instruments?" The thing has six moving gauges that I can think of. Four of them are for pressure in the life rafts and floats, one of them is for outside air temperature, and there's a wet compass if you're feeling nostalgic.
Colo(u)r is your friend in glass.
In all glass (like the AW139...) you end up asking yourself... "Where did they put the instruments?" The thing has six moving gauges that I can think of. Four of them are for pressure in the life rafts and floats, one of them is for outside air temperature, and there's a wet compass if you're feeling nostalgic.
Colo(u)r is your friend in glass.
A helicopter is a helicopter is a helicopter. Some blades turn the wrong way, some have throttles others have Speed Selects, Power Levers, or Knobs. Some have TV's on the dash....some have clocks. Some have but one engine and others have more than one...some have two main rotors but most do not. But in the end....they are all helicopters.
Remember the basics and learn the differences. Know your critical data points...airspeeds, rotor rpm's, and keep the everything in the Green Range. Time spent in the books learning systems and procedures is not wasted. Time not spent in the books is wasted. Buying a Pint for a good Engineer and seeking his counsel is not money wasted.
Helicopters have a dark side....figure out what it is on the new helicopter and avoid it.
Other than that.....a helicopter is a helicopter.
Um.......When I look at a Glass Cockpit....I understand how a Dog watching Television feels!
Remember the basics and learn the differences. Know your critical data points...airspeeds, rotor rpm's, and keep the everything in the Green Range. Time spent in the books learning systems and procedures is not wasted. Time not spent in the books is wasted. Buying a Pint for a good Engineer and seeking his counsel is not money wasted.
Helicopters have a dark side....figure out what it is on the new helicopter and avoid it.
Other than that.....a helicopter is a helicopter.
Um.......When I look at a Glass Cockpit....I understand how a Dog watching Television feels!
Last edited by SASless; 6th Aug 2012 at 18:35.
If you are talking the 139, the first thing to hit you in the " I don't understand" mind f*ck is the fact that during an engine failure, you don't initially lower the lever 
The minus 10, zero, is the next WTF...
The minus 10, zero, is the next WTF...
The Original Whirly
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Posts: 4,326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks everyone; keep 'em coming...
griffothefog,
That sounds like a fascinating example, tell me more. What do you do when the engine fails?
SASless, I will probably quote you!
griffothefog,
If you are talking the 139, the first thing to hit you in the " I don't understand" mind f*ck is the fact that during an engine failure, you don't initially lower the lever
SASless, I will probably quote you!
Last edited by Whirlybird; 6th Aug 2012 at 19:23.
Join Date: May 2006
Location: A long way away
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pull more power, then more , then more again! Actually flying a new heli is fairly straight forward, its playing with all the shiny new toys like the FMS when you're used to different shiny toys that do the same thing but in a slightly different way.
Still fun though
Still fun though
Last edited by meat bomb; 6th Aug 2012 at 20:28.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: White Waltham, Prestwick & Calgary
Age: 72
Posts: 4,156
Likes: 0
Received 29 Likes
on
14 Posts
If you're going from steam driven to glass cockpit, the first thing you have to learn is to declutter as so much information is presented in a small space. This means that you have to know what you are looking for in order to discount it or otherwise. Otherwise, as SASless says, they all follow the same principles!
Phil
Phil
Last edited by paco; 6th Aug 2012 at 20:33.
Whirly,
Nice to see you back
The glass cockpits I've flown have been iterations of earlier types, so the 'glass' has been easier to cope with: but I wish there was more commonality between manufacturer's end product. The CP of HNZ mentioned a few years ago that he declined endorsement on the AW139 as he considered that he would be unable to fly it enough to maintain a good working knowledge of the systems, a byproduct of our ever more complex cockpit environment, I guess. Looking over the likes of the S92 it impressed on me that the move to 'systems management' is more prevalent in new, larger helicopters and as we move to airline based operations.
For actual conversions, the other feature is the reliance on sim training: Geoffers would be a good source of tales to be told? A mate is joining CHC to fly 225's out of Broome WA, and is off to Aberdeen where his total endorsement training will be Sim based. I guess that his first flight in the type will be when he gets back to Oz!
Flying remains the same, though. Pull up with the left hand, cows get smaller. Push forward with right hand, cows disappear quicker. Push down with left hand, cows get bigger.
Nice to see you back
The glass cockpits I've flown have been iterations of earlier types, so the 'glass' has been easier to cope with: but I wish there was more commonality between manufacturer's end product. The CP of HNZ mentioned a few years ago that he declined endorsement on the AW139 as he considered that he would be unable to fly it enough to maintain a good working knowledge of the systems, a byproduct of our ever more complex cockpit environment, I guess. Looking over the likes of the S92 it impressed on me that the move to 'systems management' is more prevalent in new, larger helicopters and as we move to airline based operations.
For actual conversions, the other feature is the reliance on sim training: Geoffers would be a good source of tales to be told? A mate is joining CHC to fly 225's out of Broome WA, and is off to Aberdeen where his total endorsement training will be Sim based. I guess that his first flight in the type will be when he gets back to Oz!
Flying remains the same, though. Pull up with the left hand, cows get smaller. Push forward with right hand, cows disappear quicker. Push down with left hand, cows get bigger.
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Below Escape Velocity
Posts: 416
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That sounds like a fascinating example, tell me more. What do you do when the engine fails?
And pull to 176% (only for 5 seconds) on the remaining engine, before letting it down to 160% or less (for 2m30s), then let it down to 140% for the rest of the day. Now you can only fly about 130 knots or so. Tragic.
And lest we forget... steer with collective and beep switches...
Last edited by Um... lifting...; 7th Aug 2012 at 01:19.
My first conversion to a twin was interesting.
With 16 years (at the time) on turbine singles, which were loaded to the gunwales with operational gear, we were all looking forward to getting a brand new BK117, the first one in the country, to give us a bit of power margin. We had been asking for many years for this to happen.
Finally the crate arrives and is assembled by Japanese engineers, and our ground school begins with Capt Yuasa. The first thing we find out, much to our uneducated surprise, is that the BK will not hover on one engine! We had been expecting it to stay up, even during a hoist, but our dreams are shattered. Poor simple fools.
We continue with the training, and wrestle with the throttles on the roof instead of on the collective, and with the hugely responsive rotor system (compared to Bell) and the total lack of SAS (our department was too stingy to buy it) so we find that the cabin is very passenger-unfriendly. Every twitch on the cyclic, or puff of breeze, is passed directly to the cabin. Much breakfast is mopped from the floors daily.
The training finishes, and we ask Yuasa to show us a touchdown auto - he says he is not authorised to do it, and anyway, if one quits the other one keeps you going. But we pressure him, and he does one - which was awful! Lack of practice, Yuasa-san!
The power margin disappeared quickly, as The Powers That Be said "Look how much more this thing can carry!! Let's fill it up!" So we still were on the bones of our @rses, and within 6 months it was ditched in the sea anyway. Shame.
With 16 years (at the time) on turbine singles, which were loaded to the gunwales with operational gear, we were all looking forward to getting a brand new BK117, the first one in the country, to give us a bit of power margin. We had been asking for many years for this to happen.
Finally the crate arrives and is assembled by Japanese engineers, and our ground school begins with Capt Yuasa. The first thing we find out, much to our uneducated surprise, is that the BK will not hover on one engine! We had been expecting it to stay up, even during a hoist, but our dreams are shattered. Poor simple fools.
We continue with the training, and wrestle with the throttles on the roof instead of on the collective, and with the hugely responsive rotor system (compared to Bell) and the total lack of SAS (our department was too stingy to buy it) so we find that the cabin is very passenger-unfriendly. Every twitch on the cyclic, or puff of breeze, is passed directly to the cabin. Much breakfast is mopped from the floors daily.
The training finishes, and we ask Yuasa to show us a touchdown auto - he says he is not authorised to do it, and anyway, if one quits the other one keeps you going. But we pressure him, and he does one - which was awful! Lack of practice, Yuasa-san!
The power margin disappeared quickly, as The Powers That Be said "Look how much more this thing can carry!! Let's fill it up!" So we still were on the bones of our @rses, and within 6 months it was ditched in the sea anyway. Shame.
AC.....We called them "Vomit Comets" for a reason!
Actually flying a new heli is fairly straight forward, its playing with all the shiny new toys like the FMS when you're used to different shiny toys that do the same thing but in a slightly different way.
AC,
That kind of sums up Polair in the reign of Chuck to a tee!
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,957
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Equally some say that some helicopters are liable to get bird strikes on the rear end rather than the front end.
That sounds like a fascinating example, tell me more. What do you do when the engine fails?
RVDT, he only picked up the name "Chuck" because most of his passengers in the BK DID chuck!
Before that he was known as Seagull, because we had to throw rocks at him to make him fly.
Before that he was known as Seagull, because we had to throw rocks at him to make him fly.
I am now retired, but what I do remember when converting to an different type, say from a B212 to an S61N, to an AS332L, is that I used to fly the cockpit around, the rest normally followed.
Must have done, actually, as I am still here to talk about it!!
Happy days!
Must have done, actually, as I am still here to talk about it!!
Happy days!
The Original Whirly
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Posts: 4,326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thank you everyone; lots of stuff I can use there. I'm planning on writing this on Monday, so if anyone else wants to say anything, you have the weekend.....