AS 350 - what to look out for when buying
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AS 350 - what to look out for when buying
Plan to buy one later in the year . Yes we will use an expert to help with sourcing but as a novice any advice would be appreciated. What engines cause trouble, back up service etc any tips appreciated. Have a budget of circa $1.2m US , will buy a single engine model.
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Hi Goody,
Will you be using this for private or commercial use?
I've most flown the Lycoming LTS Super D's and D2's. I've found them to be very good engines and burn less fuel then the Arriel (depending on how you fly them).
As you know there are many variants of the AS350's, so it really depends on what you are looking to do with it, you've chosen a good airframe in my opinion.
Good luck.
Will you be using this for private or commercial use?
I've most flown the Lycoming LTS Super D's and D2's. I've found them to be very good engines and burn less fuel then the Arriel (depending on how you fly them).
As you know there are many variants of the AS350's, so it really depends on what you are looking to do with it, you've chosen a good airframe in my opinion.
Good luck.
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A good broker will find them all over the world. Don't be surprised if they point you towards one from Ireland or Greece. These countries are examples of economies that are struggling somewhat and I have seen a very cheap AS350 come from Ireland. Good condition too. I have heard of others as part of a fire sale.
Now please don't flame me for using Ireland and Greece as examples, and I am not saying they are the only place with cheap aircraft, it's just a personal observation recently, I wish both countries an improvement.
Think about what you want to do with it. Sounds obvious, but a B3 will cost more to run than a BA/Sd2, so if you are only private the B3 might be too expensive to run. Although if you can find a B3 at 1.2 M then please let me know...
Now please don't flame me for using Ireland and Greece as examples, and I am not saying they are the only place with cheap aircraft, it's just a personal observation recently, I wish both countries an improvement.
Think about what you want to do with it. Sounds obvious, but a B3 will cost more to run than a BA/Sd2, so if you are only private the B3 might be too expensive to run. Although if you can find a B3 at 1.2 M then please let me know...
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Short trips , sightseeing and island hopping. Mostly transferring pax from one resort to another across water..approx 8nm between an island base on one resort and 25nm to the other . Will buy an R44 clipper for smaller transfers and really short sightseeing stuff so we're not penalised by start ups and shut downs.
As we will be based on a tiny island in the Pacific surrounded by water any concerns with rust and tips to care for the machine?
Is the original French engine the one to avoid because of slack back up service with turn around time on spares? I read somewhere there were some issues way back with one of the engines ..think it was lycoming..anyone shed any light on the engine and how far back this was?
Any common parts that let go we should keep as spares ? Will employ a LAME but for now any suggestion helping this novice kindly appreciated
Can someone please quickly explain the difference between the various models
As we will be based on a tiny island in the Pacific surrounded by water any concerns with rust and tips to care for the machine?
Is the original French engine the one to avoid because of slack back up service with turn around time on spares? I read somewhere there were some issues way back with one of the engines ..think it was lycoming..anyone shed any light on the engine and how far back this was?
Any common parts that let go we should keep as spares ? Will employ a LAME but for now any suggestion helping this novice kindly appreciated
Can someone please quickly explain the difference between the various models
Last edited by Goody35; 6th Aug 2012 at 10:55.
W.I.K.I.P.E.D.I.A?
Dose with a pinch of salt first as some of the info is not very accurate.
Or you could just pay me $$$$$$$
Dose with a pinch of salt first as some of the info is not very accurate.
Or you could just pay me $$$$$$$
Last edited by RVDT; 6th Aug 2012 at 11:14.
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If you are only moving PAX you should look to AS350 D or BA+. Both are Lycoming engine.
AS350 D = 4300lbs max gross If my memorie is good.
AS350 BA+ = 4960 LBS max gross
Almost the same engine just an upgrade one same power but with most of the new SB on for the BA+.
You have around 2000lbs of payload with the AS350 BA+ and the DOC is almost the same as the AS350D. Lot's of D model converted to BA+.
As a AME I prefer the Lycoming over the Arriel because you can do almost all the maintenance on it. I heard that it's cheaper to operate, around 50 $ less an hour.
With a Lycoming if you don't pull to much power you can get 3,5 to 4 hours of flight with 1 full tank. The arriel engine are not good at low power setting for fuel economy because of the bleedvalve. So if you run a low power this bleed valve is always open and you burn lot's of fuel for nothing.
For the corrosion here in Canada we don't have that problem. So not able to help you for that.
AS350 D = 4300lbs max gross If my memorie is good.
AS350 BA+ = 4960 LBS max gross
Almost the same engine just an upgrade one same power but with most of the new SB on for the BA+.
You have around 2000lbs of payload with the AS350 BA+ and the DOC is almost the same as the AS350D. Lot's of D model converted to BA+.
As a AME I prefer the Lycoming over the Arriel because you can do almost all the maintenance on it. I heard that it's cheaper to operate, around 50 $ less an hour.
With a Lycoming if you don't pull to much power you can get 3,5 to 4 hours of flight with 1 full tank. The arriel engine are not good at low power setting for fuel economy because of the bleedvalve. So if you run a low power this bleed valve is always open and you burn lot's of fuel for nothing.
For the corrosion here in Canada we don't have that problem. So not able to help you for that.
Dont buy a 350 . Get either BA or B2 . If at all possible do not get Arriel engine , it will ruin your day when you get a $200k invoice when it goes wrong !!
( personally i would have thought a good LongRanger would have been a much better option for luggage , pax and cost .
( personally i would have thought a good LongRanger would have been a much better option for luggage , pax and cost .
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AS 350 - what to look out for when buying
Goody35: Listen to 'nigelh' and seriously consider the Bell LongRanger. A good 206L3 with emergency floats and airconditioning is well within your budget and has sufficient performance to operate in your area with a decent passenger load. If you can stretch your budget slightly (only 'slightly'), an L4 will give you better performance margins on hot days. Avoid the 206L (under-powered) and the 206L1 (marginal power on hot days), Note that there is no 206L2, the sequence goes 206L, 206L1, 206L3 and 206L4.
It's a well known fact in the commercial helicopter business that the product support of both Eurocopter and Turbomeca are somewhat lacking, whereas Bell Helicopter has been at the top of product support surveys for about fifteen years.
It's a well known fact in the commercial helicopter business that the product support of both Eurocopter and Turbomeca are somewhat lacking, whereas Bell Helicopter has been at the top of product support surveys for about fifteen years.
B4 VS AS350
Sorry don't agree with Longranger over AS350, currently Bell is slowing down on part availability to cut costs, the L4 hasn't got the pax comfort or visability of the BA. Whilst it flys better tham the JR its still not as smooth as the BA either. There will always be good and bad points for each but I would rather fly a BA or B2 any day over the L3/4. Turbomeca is a pain, but the engine is very reliable. Ask anybody who paid big money for a JR a few years ago and see how they feel now, with the way prices have dropped, the opposite can be said for the BA which has held up very well, there is a reason for that.
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The only machine you should be considering is the Longranger. For short flights you will fit 6 small to mid sized Pax - Not very comfortable but doable (6 up/5 no problem) and it does depend on size of them.
An L1 with the C30P conversion would be fine and most have this done- You wont temp out ever!
You would have a 500kg payload after fuel, pilot and floats with enough fuel to get one way on your 25Nm island hop.
Generally reliable, cheaper to operate than a AS350. Smoother (if well set up nothing is smoother). Not as fast as a squirrel but over short distances wont make any significant difference and keep in mind whatever you choose will, for the time being, be the only option so people will just get in it.
An air filter for the engine will pay for itself many times over regardless of the machine you choose stopping both salt and sand.
If the whole thing is a tax right-off or a small part of a larger money making exercise you couldn't go past the 407 (genuine 7 seater).
An L1 with the C30P conversion would be fine and most have this done- You wont temp out ever!
You would have a 500kg payload after fuel, pilot and floats with enough fuel to get one way on your 25Nm island hop.
Generally reliable, cheaper to operate than a AS350. Smoother (if well set up nothing is smoother). Not as fast as a squirrel but over short distances wont make any significant difference and keep in mind whatever you choose will, for the time being, be the only option so people will just get in it.
An air filter for the engine will pay for itself many times over regardless of the machine you choose stopping both salt and sand.
If the whole thing is a tax right-off or a small part of a larger money making exercise you couldn't go past the 407 (genuine 7 seater).
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AS 350 - what to look out for when buying
A 407 in preference to a 206L3 or L4 would certainly top any wish-list but the faster speed and more comfortable cabin - it's wider and slightly taller than the LongRanger for the same number of seats - does not always justify the significant price jump.
The cabin layout of the LongRanger and 407 permits all passengers have a very good view out of the ‘opposite’ side. The bulkhead and control tunnel behind the crew seats resultsin a limited forward view, but my experience with LongRangers is that passengers are not concerned with this. The ‘cosy’ passenger seating arrangement makes passenger interaction easier (the laughing and squealing of a group of friendsor relatives on a sight-seeing flight can often drown out the helicopter noise!).
Another distinct advantage of the LongRanger and 407 passenger cabin is that it is virtually impossible for a passenger in the rear cabin to interfere with the pilot, this would be very easy in the ‘open plan’ arrangement of the AS350 Series.
You may hear some over-eager pro-Eurocopter people saying that aft-facing passengers in the LongRanger and 407 are prone to air-sickness. Again, from my experience with LongRangers, it does occasionally happen but I feel it affects a person who would be airsick no matter which seat they occupy, or whichever helicopter type they’re flying in.
Parts availability for all of the LongRanger versions is not an issue. Furthermore, a point that is often overlooked is the fact that the Bell airframes and engines generally required a fewer special tools for field maintenance than their contemporaries.
At themoment, it’s unlikely that Goody35 would find a suitable 407 that fits his budget. If he did, it’s likely that the helicopter has a number of high-time components and the remaining life would not permit him to accumulate an adequate overhaul/repair fund before replacements and/or repairs became due.
Go for a206L3 or if your budget is flexible, a 206L4.
The cabin layout of the LongRanger and 407 permits all passengers have a very good view out of the ‘opposite’ side. The bulkhead and control tunnel behind the crew seats resultsin a limited forward view, but my experience with LongRangers is that passengers are not concerned with this. The ‘cosy’ passenger seating arrangement makes passenger interaction easier (the laughing and squealing of a group of friendsor relatives on a sight-seeing flight can often drown out the helicopter noise!).
Another distinct advantage of the LongRanger and 407 passenger cabin is that it is virtually impossible for a passenger in the rear cabin to interfere with the pilot, this would be very easy in the ‘open plan’ arrangement of the AS350 Series.
You may hear some over-eager pro-Eurocopter people saying that aft-facing passengers in the LongRanger and 407 are prone to air-sickness. Again, from my experience with LongRangers, it does occasionally happen but I feel it affects a person who would be airsick no matter which seat they occupy, or whichever helicopter type they’re flying in.
Parts availability for all of the LongRanger versions is not an issue. Furthermore, a point that is often overlooked is the fact that the Bell airframes and engines generally required a fewer special tools for field maintenance than their contemporaries.
At themoment, it’s unlikely that Goody35 would find a suitable 407 that fits his budget. If he did, it’s likely that the helicopter has a number of high-time components and the remaining life would not permit him to accumulate an adequate overhaul/repair fund before replacements and/or repairs became due.
Go for a206L3 or if your budget is flexible, a 206L4.
Last edited by Saint Jack; 7th Aug 2012 at 09:55.
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Thanks guys for your input ..always interesting reading the various opinions as to what machine suits various tasks and why.
Down in this part of the world most commercial passenger operations either use an R44 or one of the AS350 variants...no idea why , but in NZ Long Rangers are almost no existant hence it wasn't something I'd considered .
Finding a LAME qualified to work on a Long Ranger in Fiji where we are setting up the service may be an issue. As far as I'm aware there are only 2 MD500's and 6 AS350 variants in Fiji at present..that's it for the whole country chopper wise.
I'll run off and and read up specs and prices . Great advice with regards to the air filter ..thanks
Down in this part of the world most commercial passenger operations either use an R44 or one of the AS350 variants...no idea why , but in NZ Long Rangers are almost no existant hence it wasn't something I'd considered .
Finding a LAME qualified to work on a Long Ranger in Fiji where we are setting up the service may be an issue. As far as I'm aware there are only 2 MD500's and 6 AS350 variants in Fiji at present..that's it for the whole country chopper wise.
I'll run off and and read up specs and prices . Great advice with regards to the air filter ..thanks
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Most 206B/Ls have been replaced by R44s in NZ because they were just doing pax transfers anyway and the R44 can do it cheaper.
The 206s still flying in NZ are doing Ag work or are private machines owned by people who wont fly in a 44.
The cheap AS350s from Japan have helped make them common in NZ over the years.
You are entering a buyers market but all too soon you may find yourself a seller.
With that in mind look for a low timed example that does not have a history near the beach or any other corrosive environment. Corrosion applies to the airframe as well as engine so get a compressor wash kit if you can so you can routinely flush the engine.
Ensure you have good hangarage and an anti corrosion program. A buyer will look for that.
For an AS350 B/D try and get one with the 4 point hook already in place I second the IBF filter.
Remember the rotorhead overhaul cost are quite different from the B/Ba to the B2.
The resource sector world wide is still going strong and AS350B/BAs/Ds are being converted relatively fast to SD2s. That leaves less and less Bs.
If there are already AS350s in Fiji with engineers already available then I think the decision is already made.
The 206s still flying in NZ are doing Ag work or are private machines owned by people who wont fly in a 44.
The cheap AS350s from Japan have helped make them common in NZ over the years.
You are entering a buyers market but all too soon you may find yourself a seller.
With that in mind look for a low timed example that does not have a history near the beach or any other corrosive environment. Corrosion applies to the airframe as well as engine so get a compressor wash kit if you can so you can routinely flush the engine.
Ensure you have good hangarage and an anti corrosion program. A buyer will look for that.
For an AS350 B/D try and get one with the 4 point hook already in place I second the IBF filter.
Remember the rotorhead overhaul cost are quite different from the B/Ba to the B2.
The resource sector world wide is still going strong and AS350B/BAs/Ds are being converted relatively fast to SD2s. That leaves less and less Bs.
If there are already AS350s in Fiji with engineers already available then I think the decision is already made.
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i doubt that the current operators would be overly helpful to what would probably be seen as a competitor setting up shop. not having a go at IH, or anyone else, dont know them at all, but a very small island with limited heli operators, i think only one operator?? maybe two now, probably wouldnt be loaning out their engineer to help the new guy.
maybe im wrong, but would plan on having to get engineer over from NZ or OZ for servicing, or else compete with PNG re wages for them...
Another benefit of an LR is that you will slide the 44 and LR in the hangar space that a 350 would take. and Bell arent winding down support for their products, you can still buy factory new parts for the 204, which is 20-30 yrs older than a LR???
For Fiji, i'd go for an LR, similar to the squirrel, there are good and bad points for both, however it will be the only one in country, which can have its benefits. can also have negatives, but having one AS350 when the other guys have 6 can have negatives as well...
maybe im wrong, but would plan on having to get engineer over from NZ or OZ for servicing, or else compete with PNG re wages for them...
Another benefit of an LR is that you will slide the 44 and LR in the hangar space that a 350 would take. and Bell arent winding down support for their products, you can still buy factory new parts for the 204, which is 20-30 yrs older than a LR???
For Fiji, i'd go for an LR, similar to the squirrel, there are good and bad points for both, however it will be the only one in country, which can have its benefits. can also have negatives, but having one AS350 when the other guys have 6 can have negatives as well...
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Go for a 407 and you will never look back.
Remember the Auckland Astar and the ground resonance incident in Brazil and how the cabs of both helis just "fell off"? Well, that won't happen to you in your 407.
Smooth, fast and sturdy and best of all - reliable back up from Bell.
Remember the Auckland Astar and the ground resonance incident in Brazil and how the cabs of both helis just "fell off"? Well, that won't happen to you in your 407.
Smooth, fast and sturdy and best of all - reliable back up from Bell.
I hear what you say but a 407 will be double the price of an L3 . The L3 has one extra pax to the 350 and will be a LOT cheaper to operate . All of these machines are ultra smooth when balanced properly so that is not an issue .
If you are carrying bags as well as pax: I'd suggest the only machine that will do the job is an AS350 variant with "Squirrel Cheeks" (Dart or American Eurocopter baggage extenders – CAN”T BE FITTED WITH SLIDING DOORS).
(I’ve flown these machines on Tourist Transport ops in Fiji)
As to your Q re AS350 models:
AS350B (1950kg MTOW, Older design blades)
AS350BA (2100kg {but typically 50kg heaver MT, so 100kg/1 pax improvement} MTOW, 355 Blades, more grunt}
AS350B2 (2200?kg, more grunt) There were a few B1s - 1/2 way between BA&B2
AS350B3 (Same MTOW?, more grunt again. {FADEC and electronics, not universally accepted as superior})
AS350B3e – out of your price range.
To sum up: More useful load costs more to buy and operate.
Work out your requirements re pax/bags/fuel weight......
The Lycoming engined equivalents (approximate equivalents) use a "Super D" instead of "B" in the name.EG “AS350 Super D2” is a Lycoming LTS101 powered version of an AS350B2
The Lycomings were originally faulty, and coined the name "Falling Star" (for the original AS350D "Astar") (Killed the B222 BTW)
With a replacement design for one "wheel" and specific operating procedures, the Lycomings are now considered great motors. Better fuel consumption, lower costs, but in my limited experience, not as sharp on FCU control of RRPM.
I’d rather fly a French engine. I’d rather own an American engine.
I’d rather fly a Squirrel. I’d rather own (or crash) a Bell.
I hope this helps.
"Are you sure that low fuel light should be on?"*
*tragic Fijian "in joke"........."
(I’ve flown these machines on Tourist Transport ops in Fiji)
As to your Q re AS350 models:
AS350B (1950kg MTOW, Older design blades)
AS350BA (2100kg {but typically 50kg heaver MT, so 100kg/1 pax improvement} MTOW, 355 Blades, more grunt}
AS350B2 (2200?kg, more grunt) There were a few B1s - 1/2 way between BA&B2
AS350B3 (Same MTOW?, more grunt again. {FADEC and electronics, not universally accepted as superior})
AS350B3e – out of your price range.
To sum up: More useful load costs more to buy and operate.
Work out your requirements re pax/bags/fuel weight......
The Lycoming engined equivalents (approximate equivalents) use a "Super D" instead of "B" in the name.EG “AS350 Super D2” is a Lycoming LTS101 powered version of an AS350B2
The Lycomings were originally faulty, and coined the name "Falling Star" (for the original AS350D "Astar") (Killed the B222 BTW)
With a replacement design for one "wheel" and specific operating procedures, the Lycomings are now considered great motors. Better fuel consumption, lower costs, but in my limited experience, not as sharp on FCU control of RRPM.
I’d rather fly a French engine. I’d rather own an American engine.
I’d rather fly a Squirrel. I’d rather own (or crash) a Bell.
I hope this helps.
"Are you sure that low fuel light should be on?"*
*tragic Fijian "in joke"........."
Last edited by That lights normal!; 9th Aug 2012 at 00:38.