per hour non profit operation cost
per hour non profit operation cost
I'm trying to figure out what the real cost per hour are if I borrow a friends BO-105, when that friend wouldn't want to charge me for (price_new - end-of-life-hull-value)/hours-operated, like a commercial renter would have to.
To be more precise lets assume:
- he doesn't want to make a living from renting it
- he's got to pay for the replacement rig at end of life, just as if I've never flow it
- I'd like to compensate him for the time I (ab)used his aircraft.
- there's no pilot to be paid
Example:
Between two turbine overhauls he'd be 50% in the air and I the other 50%. Assuming 3000h between overhaul with overhaul cost being 30kEUR the hour would go at 10EUR. Adding to that the cost per hour of anything that requires periodic maintenance, plus the "typical" ??EUR fuel per hour, etc.etc.
your got the picture?
Is there any public source where one could find and compare these "pure-operation-cost"?
Preferrably for S300, B206, BO105, A109,EC135 to name a few.
I know that a HEMS flight starts at 2500EUR per hour, but in that case one is covering a pilot and medical crew, the gas, their standby wages and the operators desired revenue etc. in that rate.
Maybe that question is stupid, I just wanted to arrive at a fair "rental fee" among buddies, w/o him sponsoring me or the other way round.
It there an industry term for that type of hourly cost?
To be more precise lets assume:
- he doesn't want to make a living from renting it
- he's got to pay for the replacement rig at end of life, just as if I've never flow it
- I'd like to compensate him for the time I (ab)used his aircraft.
- there's no pilot to be paid
Example:
Between two turbine overhauls he'd be 50% in the air and I the other 50%. Assuming 3000h between overhaul with overhaul cost being 30kEUR the hour would go at 10EUR. Adding to that the cost per hour of anything that requires periodic maintenance, plus the "typical" ??EUR fuel per hour, etc.etc.
your got the picture?
Is there any public source where one could find and compare these "pure-operation-cost"?
Preferrably for S300, B206, BO105, A109,EC135 to name a few.
I know that a HEMS flight starts at 2500EUR per hour, but in that case one is covering a pilot and medical crew, the gas, their standby wages and the operators desired revenue etc. in that rate.
Maybe that question is stupid, I just wanted to arrive at a fair "rental fee" among buddies, w/o him sponsoring me or the other way round.
It there an industry term for that type of hourly cost?
Doesn't your "friend" have even a remote idea of what he needs?
Have you been friends very long?
30K for an overhaul? Not even close.
If you took care of fuel and insurance and paid 300 euros per hour, you would get a very cheap rate and he might just about break even.
I particulaly like your comment that he will have to pay the complete replacement cost when the time comes, if you "rent" it or not.
I guess that's what friends are for.
Have you been friends very long?
30K for an overhaul? Not even close.
If you took care of fuel and insurance and paid 300 euros per hour, you would get a very cheap rate and he might just about break even.
I particulaly like your comment that he will have to pay the complete replacement cost when the time comes, if you "rent" it or not.
I guess that's what friends are for.
Well sure he has. He's a doctor of radiology and owner of a small HEMS operation, currently owning 3 non JAR-OPS3 compatible BO105 and an EC135. He's got a PPL only (no CPL, got a hired crew doing HEMS) and simply got into helicopters for fun and joy, trying to make it less of a money drain by doing HEMS.
Hence he's very supportive that a buddy of mine and me are leaning to get us a PPL-H each.
That 30K bucks for a (twin)turbine overhaul was just a number out of the blue by a cluesless nerd (me). So what's it really? 30K per turbine?
So you are suggesting 300€ per hour for borrowing his BO105?
How much more would be the EC135?
Anyone got such a "break even among buddies" rental rate for an S300 or an A109?
I totally lack a feeling for that. My only orientation is the published rental rates like Training with HeliClass
which certaily include the cost of a replacement at end-of-hull-time and some revenue for the owner.
Hence the $800 for a B206 or $1500 for an AS350 from above example website are definitely well above "buddy rate", I'd guess, but don't know how much above they are...
Hence he's very supportive that a buddy of mine and me are leaning to get us a PPL-H each.
That 30K bucks for a (twin)turbine overhaul was just a number out of the blue by a cluesless nerd (me). So what's it really? 30K per turbine?
So you are suggesting 300€ per hour for borrowing his BO105?
How much more would be the EC135?
Anyone got such a "break even among buddies" rental rate for an S300 or an A109?
I totally lack a feeling for that. My only orientation is the published rental rates like Training with HeliClass
which certaily include the cost of a replacement at end-of-hull-time and some revenue for the owner.
Hence the $800 for a B206 or $1500 for an AS350 from above example website are definitely well above "buddy rate", I'd guess, but don't know how much above they are...
Hmm, this pages claims $1019 per hour on a BO105. Quite a difference to "Gemini Twins" suggested 300.
Does "total variable cost per hour" inlude aircraft-price / total-life-hours ?
Does "total variable cost per hour" inlude aircraft-price / total-life-hours ?
Have you tried math?
Take a purchase price of let's say €500000 at 6%, that's €30000
Now add 3% insurance, that's €15000
Total €45000, at 300 hours per year you have €150/hour.
About 250 Liters of that good liquid sets you back another €350, for a total of €500.
You still need to buy parts, oil, pay the mechanics and store the machine.
Take a purchase price of let's say €500000 at 6%, that's €30000
Now add 3% insurance, that's €15000
Total €45000, at 300 hours per year you have €150/hour.
About 250 Liters of that good liquid sets you back another €350, for a total of €500.
You still need to buy parts, oil, pay the mechanics and store the machine.
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Terra
Age: 46
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Maths..
Gemini Twin
"If you took care of fuel and insurance and paid 300 euros per hour, you would get a very cheap rate and he might just about break even."
"If you took care of fuel and insurance and paid 300 euros per hour, you would get a very cheap rate and he might just about break even."
Reely340
"So you are suggesting 300€ per hour for borrowing his BO105?"
"So you are suggesting 300€ per hour for borrowing his BO105?"
--> 300€ + 350€ + 150€ = ~800€ /h
Seems about right.. at least not far off a "fair deal" I would guess..
"w/o him sponsoring me or the other way round"
No, he seems to be saying it's 300€ + Fuel + Insurance
--> 300€ + 350€ + 150€ = ~800€ /h
150€ Insturance pre hour What cost is typically covered?
Is that third party liability (me crash landing into someone's garden shed)?
Or some CDW covering me ruining/denting his chopper?
or all of the above?
Sounds like a pretty stiff premium, considering how much saver aviation is claimed to be in comparison to ground vehicle traffic.
--> 300€ + 350€ + 150€ = ~800€ /h
150€ Insturance pre hour
What cost is typically covered?Is that third party liability (me crash landing into someone's garden shed)?
Or some CDW covering me ruining/denting his chopper?
or all of the above?
Sounds like a pretty stiff premium, considering how much saver aviation is claimed to be in comparison to ground vehicle traffic.
Last edited by Reely340; 22nd Mar 2012 at 16:48.
Gruesse Reely....
.......In a BO 105..... are you off your rocker??? Seriously, not that I'm jealous or anything, but I wouldn't recommend that. Learn to fly in something smaller and less powerful... It will teach you to respect the machine and the power available. You'll be thankful for it later. Once you've got a PPL do a conversion onto something in between and then onto the 105...
I have instructed quite a few PPL's in my time and have taught some who could afford to buy big machines straight out.... we always recommended starting small and work your way up.
If you do a PPL you will have to register the 105 with a school who will charge you, and pay an instructor and some possible other fees, so it might work out more expensive than doing it in a 22 or 300...
a buddy of mine and me are leaning to get us a PPL-H each
I have instructed quite a few PPL's in my time and have taught some who could afford to buy big machines straight out.... we always recommended starting small and work your way up.
If you do a PPL you will have to register the 105 with a school who will charge you, and pay an instructor and some possible other fees, so it might work out more expensive than doing it in a 22 or 300...
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: around and about
Age: 71
Posts: 280
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Reality check
Reely
I haven't been actively involved on costing DOCs for some time now BUT.......... it seems to me that the figures bandied about on this thread are way too low. The 'published' figures are always optimistic I'm afraid, and some 10 years ago a budgetary cost for such an aircraft was something over £1000/hr, and not including an allowance for un-scheduled happenings (which WILL occur).
Never mind anything else but look at the engines. Reliable? Yes ..BUT you have to take account of the mini-turbine at 1775hrs or 3000 cycles and then the turbine O/H subsequently. How many compressors do you know of which made full O/H life on teh compressor cases alone? Anything over 1200 hrs you're very lucky indeed.
Would suggest putting all figures into a spreadsheet, dividing by O/H or TIMEX life, and add a BIG fudge factor. Then look at less significant sums like fuel etc (and insurance which is properly a fixed cost, not direct)
Just rying to be realistic - VFR
I haven't been actively involved on costing DOCs for some time now BUT.......... it seems to me that the figures bandied about on this thread are way too low. The 'published' figures are always optimistic I'm afraid, and some 10 years ago a budgetary cost for such an aircraft was something over £1000/hr, and not including an allowance for un-scheduled happenings (which WILL occur).
Never mind anything else but look at the engines. Reliable? Yes ..BUT you have to take account of the mini-turbine at 1775hrs or 3000 cycles and then the turbine O/H subsequently. How many compressors do you know of which made full O/H life on teh compressor cases alone? Anything over 1200 hrs you're very lucky indeed.
Would suggest putting all figures into a spreadsheet, dividing by O/H or TIMEX life, and add a BIG fudge factor. Then look at less significant sums like fuel etc (and insurance which is properly a fixed cost, not direct)
Just rying to be realistic - VFR
> I'm sorry to mislead but I thought the original intent was to establish a buddy hourly rate price based on the going commercial rate.
That's ok, my english is a little bit ambiguous, in times.
Assume you were the owner of a BO-105.
We two were friends, I have a current type rating for a BO-105.
I'd like to borrow your BO for appr. 2h air time.
What would you charge me per hour for that time so that you don't make a living on my flying your bird, but at the same time not giving me a free ride on you precious equipment.
That was was I wanted to find out, more precisely learn how to calculate that buddy's rate for any aircraft.
Still thanks for your input, and sorry for my long response delay.
P.
That's ok, my english is a little bit ambiguous, in times.
Assume you were the owner of a BO-105.
We two were friends, I have a current type rating for a BO-105.
I'd like to borrow your BO for appr. 2h air time.
What would you charge me per hour for that time so that you don't make a living on my flying your bird, but at the same time not giving me a free ride on you precious equipment.
That was was I wanted to find out, more precisely learn how to calculate that buddy's rate for any aircraft.
Still thanks for your input, and sorry for my long response delay.
P.
Last edited by Reely340; 18th Apr 2012 at 20:24.
> You cannot do a PPL on a BO105!
True. Austrian PPL training rules demand training be done on single engine helicopters only.
> I have the feeling this is a troll thread anyway.
It ain't that bad.
But just the other week I was talking to a friend of mine over the phone, doing some remote it support, when he mentioned that he'd like to leave asap from the customer's, because that very buddy of us will be flying one of his BOs to the Service Shop.
Needless to say I requested a back seat, and dropped my pencil^Wmouse 5 min. later only to hit the freeway and speed to the airfield.
The two of us and another friend of the owner got the three back seats, while owner and copilot friend flew 50 min. over Austrian alps, dropping off the BO-105 at the service center (up until recently BOs had to be brought to Germany for service).
There we spectated around, admiring all the other birds (C300, EC135.) while that owner picked up another BO which just had been serviced.
He's rather cautious with freshly serviced aircraft, doing a 5 minute full rpm dry run (no pitch) with the mech leaning in, before we all got back on board and headed "home" in final daylight. That's three heli aficionados enjoying a 100 min. afternoon ride, for free.
Ratio behind that: he'd have to bring in the one and pick up the other BO anyhow, and hence carted our asses around for free.
Talk about a really kind, buddy!
True. Austrian PPL training rules demand training be done on single engine helicopters only.
> I have the feeling this is a troll thread anyway.
It ain't that bad.
But just the other week I was talking to a friend of mine over the phone, doing some remote it support, when he mentioned that he'd like to leave asap from the customer's, because that very buddy of us will be flying one of his BOs to the Service Shop.Needless to say I requested a back seat, and dropped my pencil^Wmouse 5 min. later only to hit the freeway and speed to the airfield.
The two of us and another friend of the owner got the three back seats, while owner and copilot friend flew 50 min. over Austrian alps, dropping off the BO-105 at the service center (up until recently BOs had to be brought to Germany for service).
There we spectated around, admiring all the other birds (C300, EC135.) while that owner picked up another BO which just had been serviced.
He's rather cautious with freshly serviced aircraft, doing a 5 minute full rpm dry run (no pitch) with the mech leaning in, before we all got back on board and headed "home" in final daylight. That's three heli aficionados enjoying a 100 min. afternoon ride, for free.
Ratio behind that: he'd have to bring in the one and pick up the other BO anyhow, and hence carted our asses around for free.
Talk about a really kind, buddy!
Last edited by Reely340; 18th Apr 2012 at 20:23.
> BTW you can't fly on a FAA PPL in Austria
I'd say you can fly as PIC, in an N-registered aircraft, that is.
But mind you, I'm just an interested noob, nothing more.
AFAIK:
The British CAA has licensed some overseas FTOs under JAA rules so one can make his PPL(-H) in Florida at definitely lower cost:
Example air plane PPL cost comparison,( in german): Kostenvergleich US PPL gegen JAR PPL - Deutsche Flugschule USA Florida Flyers
With that kind of "US-PPL" (actually a JAR-FCL PPL) you can fly European registered aircraft inside Europe
AND N-registered aircraft in any FAA compatible country (the latter is my guess)
Nice for recreational users, but guys intending to go commercial ought better train locally to get a job offer, I'm guessing.
(You certainly can add a mountain "rating" to your PPL in Florida, could be that Austrian/Swiss HEMS operator might frown a little at that career path)
side note: how do I get a "reply" window with the text of the posting I'm answering to already include as a quote?
I'd say you can fly as PIC, in an N-registered aircraft, that is.
But mind you, I'm just an interested noob, nothing more.
AFAIK:
The British CAA has licensed some overseas FTOs under JAA rules so one can make his PPL(-H) in Florida at definitely lower cost:
Example air plane PPL cost comparison,( in german): Kostenvergleich US PPL gegen JAR PPL - Deutsche Flugschule USA Florida Flyers
With that kind of "US-PPL" (actually a JAR-FCL PPL) you can fly European registered aircraft inside Europe
AND N-registered aircraft in any FAA compatible country (the latter is my guess)
Nice for recreational users, but guys intending to go commercial ought better train locally to get a job offer, I'm guessing.
(You certainly can add a mountain "rating" to your PPL in Florida, could be that Austrian/Swiss HEMS operator might frown a little at that career path)
side note: how do I get a "reply" window with the text of the posting I'm answering to already include as a quote?
Last edited by Reely340; 18th Apr 2012 at 20:26.
Chief Bottle Washer
In the url you will see it end "noquote=1"
Delete the "1"
Reload the amended url, and the post will appear as a quote including the original poster's name.
Alternatively, highlight the required text that you want to quote and copy it.
In a new reply window select the quote button,
and paste the quoted into the resulting brackets, as[ ]here[/]
