Remove VAT on Air Ambulance charity Fuel bills
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: York UK
Age: 68
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Remove VAT on Air Ambulance charity Fuel bills
Hi Guys and ladies I need your help please. I have been campaigning for the last few months to get the VAR returned to the Air Ambulance charities, unlike the RNLI the air ambulance charities do not get an exemption from VAT on their fuel bills.
On Friday 10 02 2012 I opened an E-Petition and I need 100.000 signatures to get the issue debated in the house of commons. If you could sign the petition and also post the link up on any other forums and web site you frequent that would be great.
Return VAT on Air Ambulance fuel payments. - e-petitions
If you require any further information please don't hesitate to contact me
also if the forum management could make this sticky that would also be very much appreciated. 
With thanks
Ken Sharpe.
On Friday 10 02 2012 I opened an E-Petition and I need 100.000 signatures to get the issue debated in the house of commons. If you could sign the petition and also post the link up on any other forums and web site you frequent that would be great.
Return VAT on Air Ambulance fuel payments. - e-petitions
If you require any further information please don't hesitate to contact me
also if the forum management could make this sticky that would also be very much appreciated. With thanks
Ken Sharpe.
Great idea. I'm a trustee of an Air Ambulance charity and this subject came up only yesterday in discussion.
I've spread to the Flyer, Disco3 and the Saracens supporters forums - interesting mix of interests! - and to FaceAche.
I've spread to the Flyer, Disco3 and the Saracens supporters forums - interesting mix of interests! - and to FaceAche.
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: uk
Posts: 419
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A couple of questions Ken,
What rate of vat are you paying?
Are you asking for the relevant charity to reclaim the vat or the commercial operator acting on behalf of the charity?
I ask as I once worked at a police ASU that helped out an air ambulance with (free) fuel when the local SAR flight couldn't help. This then became a bit of a habit until it was pointed out that we didn't pay vat on our fuel so couldn't give it away to a party liable for vat (however we might want to!) and that the recipient of the tax payers generosity was in fact a commercial operator acting on behalf of the charity, but possibly not passing on the 'free' fuel to the charity....
Good luck with your quest, if the airlines don't pay it why should a charity AOC.
What rate of vat are you paying?
Are you asking for the relevant charity to reclaim the vat or the commercial operator acting on behalf of the charity?
I ask as I once worked at a police ASU that helped out an air ambulance with (free) fuel when the local SAR flight couldn't help. This then became a bit of a habit until it was pointed out that we didn't pay vat on our fuel so couldn't give it away to a party liable for vat (however we might want to!) and that the recipient of the tax payers generosity was in fact a commercial operator acting on behalf of the charity, but possibly not passing on the 'free' fuel to the charity....
Good luck with your quest, if the airlines don't pay it why should a charity AOC.
(Why does it do that? We are not interested in very bad, East German grot boxes.)Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Coventry
Age: 48
Posts: 1,946
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good luck with your quest, if the airlines don't pay it why should a charity AOC.
Where is the line drawn - if the helicopter offered scheduled services (eg BIH to Scilly Is) - would it be exempt too? I know GA pay.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: UK
Age: 71
Posts: 1,364
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ken,
I think most of us (in the UK) would think your suggestion is a good one, in principle. However, how are you going to suggest that the exemption deals with HEMS operated by commercial operators (which is most UK HEMS)?
Don't go suggesting to the government something that the "poor overworked" tax collectors could/would have difficulty with.
I think most of us (in the UK) would think your suggestion is a good one, in principle. However, how are you going to suggest that the exemption deals with HEMS operated by commercial operators (which is most UK HEMS)?
Don't go suggesting to the government something that the "poor overworked" tax collectors could/would have difficulty with.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: York UK
Age: 68
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Let me just say guys
I don't work or have anything to do with ANY of the Air Ambulance charities so any answer's I give are from good but second had sources.
In answer to Art of flight,
1. I am told they pay full VAT on the fuel bill.
2. It would be the charity that was given the exemption, if they were to use contractors that would have to be taken into consideration.
3. I could not possible comment only to agree with you that it is ridicules that if someone wanted to give them a few thousand liters of fuel the charity would have to pay the VAT on it.
Hope this helps.
I don't work or have anything to do with ANY of the Air Ambulance charities so any answer's I give are from good but second had sources.
In answer to Art of flight,
1. I am told they pay full VAT on the fuel bill.
2. It would be the charity that was given the exemption, if they were to use contractors that would have to be taken into consideration.
3. I could not possible comment only to agree with you that it is ridicules that if someone wanted to give them a few thousand liters of fuel the charity would have to pay the VAT on it.
Hope this helps.
Art
5% VAT is payable. Not the end of the wold but as Mr Tesco says....
Different charities operate in different ways. The charity I work with buys its own fuel
Chopjock
AA charities do not 'sell' anything, so are not entitled to register for VAT.
Here's some weasly guff to raise your hackles on a Sunday morning.
5% VAT is payable. Not the end of the wold but as Mr Tesco says....
Different charities operate in different ways. The charity I work with buys its own fuel
Chopjock
AA charities do not 'sell' anything, so are not entitled to register for VAT.
Here's some weasly guff to raise your hackles on a Sunday morning.
But why fuel? In the UK huge swathes of medical care are provided by charities and many of them are even more precarious than air ambulance charities. The VAT bill for many is a far higher proportion
Personally I believe healthcare should be properly provided and that health charity like alms houses and prison for debtors belong in the past. But we have to deal with reality
If you campaign for VAT relief for health charities you would engage the support of massive charities and powerful individuals. I just don't see why this is a special case
Personally I believe healthcare should be properly provided and that health charity like alms houses and prison for debtors belong in the past. But we have to deal with reality
If you campaign for VAT relief for health charities you would engage the support of massive charities and powerful individuals. I just don't see why this is a special case
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: York UK
Age: 68
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for that 206 Jock I saw that bit of You Tube when I was researching this issue and it was one of the things that pressed my buttons and got me started, that and Lord Sassoon say that AA Charities "Do not have to pay VAT on any medication they buy" Live in the real world Lord Sassoon THEY ARE GIVING IT AWAY! And supplying you with a FREE service that the NHS should be supplying.
It's nothing to do with 'fairness', I'm afraid. I'm sure that the taxman would love to get his hands on that extra revenue.
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: London, UK
Posts: 226
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was about to wade through this
HM Revenue & Customs: VAT guidance for charities and not-for profit organisations
are there any experts out there who can summarise all the pertinent issues on this one?
I've only read about the UK private school / charity / vat thing in the past but that's rather different.
HM Revenue & Customs: VAT guidance for charities and not-for profit organisations
are there any experts out there who can summarise all the pertinent issues on this one?
I've only read about the UK private school / charity / vat thing in the past but that's rather different.
Hovering AND talking
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Propping up bars in the Lands of D H Lawrence and Bishop Bonner
Age: 59
Posts: 5,705
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The salient point, is that medical supplies and services are VAT exempt and therefore, VAT on goods purchased cannot be reclaimed. Charities can register for VAT depending on the nature of their supples.
Where a commercial operator operates the air ambulance on behalf of a charity, do they invoice their costs to the charity including VAT? Or is there an exemption certificate?
The above link covers only part of the minefield that is VAT and is not easy to summarise and it's already written in a faitly succinct form.
I could see this being very difficult to administer given the differing setups involved.
Cheers
Whirls
Where a commercial operator operates the air ambulance on behalf of a charity, do they invoice their costs to the charity including VAT? Or is there an exemption certificate?
The above link covers only part of the minefield that is VAT and is not easy to summarise and it's already written in a faitly succinct form.
I could see this being very difficult to administer given the differing setups involved.
Cheers
Whirls
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Germany
Age: 47
Posts: 402
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
i cannot say anything about rotorheads, but in our company we regurarly do ambulance missions with aircraft , and when it comes to fuel it depends not if its ambulance or not, it depends if you are as the company entitled from the tax authority to take commercial fuel which is tax and VAT free. at least at our german operator.
you have to show to the pump attendant the such called "erlaubnisschein" or a allowance ticket and then he will bill it tax and vat free.
there is also antother vat : the general VAT when you fill the invoice tor the entire flight. here it depends- flights which start and end in the country of registration have to be billed with VAT, international flights are generally VAT free.
but things in UK or generally in helicopter operations may be different .
best regards
you have to show to the pump attendant the such called "erlaubnisschein" or a allowance ticket and then he will bill it tax and vat free.
there is also antother vat : the general VAT when you fill the invoice tor the entire flight. here it depends- flights which start and end in the country of registration have to be billed with VAT, international flights are generally VAT free.
but things in UK or generally in helicopter operations may be different .
best regards
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: uk
Posts: 419
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think the difficulty in the UK is that the provision of air ambulances is the domain of profit making commercial contractors, and is not a joined up nationally controlled 'service', just that the funds for its existance are raised by charities, so is quite unlike the RNLI. Looking at the figures for VAT paid by the Yorkshire charity on aviation fuel last year, it would appear to be a tiny percentage of their operating costs compared to say vat on aircraft parts and servicing etc. Rather than an epetition for fuel vat why not have a good root and branch look at the whole air ambulance set up to save bigger money.?
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: UK
Age: 71
Posts: 1,364
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am NOT an expert in VAT but I have been "doing it" for many years, and operating a small entity that is VAT registered.
If I provide consultancy services, I have to pay VAT on my outputs, so I add VAT at the going rate to my invoices. I charge on an agreed basis to the client. Very often the basis agreed is for a rate or possibly a fixed price, plus expenses. The expenses could be travel or accommodation or materials. Some of these inputs are standard rated, some zero, some special rate etc. However, I was picked up many years ago by HMRC that because my outputs were VAT rated at the standard rate, that ALL invoiced items needed to be charged at the standard VAT rate. My busness was the provision of consultancy services, NOT travel accommodation etc. So I charged std rate on expenses, no matter what. [It does not matter to my clients as they are also VAT registered, and claim back all their input VAT].
Transfer all that to an AA charity: for the majority in the UK I believe that most still have their helicopter operated by a commercial operator. That operator will be registered for VAT, and will charge VAT on all his outputs. My guess is that it depends what service the operator is registered as providing. If he provides commercial air transport, then he will have to charge standard VAT on all outputs. If he had his services to include the provision of aviation fuel, then maybe he could charge 5% VAT on the fuel.
We need an expert in VAT.......... However, we are only talking about 5% for fuel if that is separated out.
If I provide consultancy services, I have to pay VAT on my outputs, so I add VAT at the going rate to my invoices. I charge on an agreed basis to the client. Very often the basis agreed is for a rate or possibly a fixed price, plus expenses. The expenses could be travel or accommodation or materials. Some of these inputs are standard rated, some zero, some special rate etc. However, I was picked up many years ago by HMRC that because my outputs were VAT rated at the standard rate, that ALL invoiced items needed to be charged at the standard VAT rate. My busness was the provision of consultancy services, NOT travel accommodation etc. So I charged std rate on expenses, no matter what. [It does not matter to my clients as they are also VAT registered, and claim back all their input VAT].
Transfer all that to an AA charity: for the majority in the UK I believe that most still have their helicopter operated by a commercial operator. That operator will be registered for VAT, and will charge VAT on all his outputs. My guess is that it depends what service the operator is registered as providing. If he provides commercial air transport, then he will have to charge standard VAT on all outputs. If he had his services to include the provision of aviation fuel, then maybe he could charge 5% VAT on the fuel.
We need an expert in VAT.......... However, we are only talking about 5% for fuel if that is separated out.
I have spent years on this
The output is an ambulance which is exempt so the charity cannot reclaim it
The NHS spends billions on VAT and can't reclaim it
Ironically a few tax offices are allowing ambulances to be zero rated or at least they were several years ago so that two ambulances companies would tender for NHS work with a as then 15% difference but as far as I know all air operations are exempt
But once again the VAT on fuel is diddly. Compare it with a charity I know that has just paid for an X ray machine which will be operated by the NHS - the VAT burden to the charity was 20% of their money or one million pounds in one day. Surely far more deserving??
The output is an ambulance which is exempt so the charity cannot reclaim it
The NHS spends billions on VAT and can't reclaim it
Ironically a few tax offices are allowing ambulances to be zero rated or at least they were several years ago so that two ambulances companies would tender for NHS work with a as then 15% difference but as far as I know all air operations are exempt
But once again the VAT on fuel is diddly. Compare it with a charity I know that has just paid for an X ray machine which will be operated by the NHS - the VAT burden to the charity was 20% of their money or one million pounds in one day. Surely far more deserving??
But once again the VAT on fuel is diddly. Compare it with a charity I know that has just paid for an X ray machine which will be operated by the NHS - the VAT burden to the charity was 20% of their money or one million pounds in one day. Surely far more deserving??
Jeesh
