EC135 or Bell 429 ?
Still searching for the following B429 related information:
- Confirmation that the maximum fuel capacity (standard tank) is 810ltrs
- Confirmation that max cruise (Vh) is 155kts
- Average (or approx.) fuel burn
Blackdog: That is a surprise given that Bell have traditionally delivered very well in this area. Reassuring to hear however that EC seem to be improving their after sales support.
- Confirmation that the maximum fuel capacity (standard tank) is 810ltrs
- Confirmation that max cruise (Vh) is 155kts
- Average (or approx.) fuel burn
Blackdog: That is a surprise given that Bell have traditionally delivered very well in this area. Reassuring to hear however that EC seem to be improving their after sales support.
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429 stats
The 429 will not cruise at 155 kias. even near Sea Lvl.
Plan on 150 kias only if you're willing to burn 90gph!!!
That's at slightly less than gross wgt. (FAA land 7,000 lb MGW).
82 gph for 140 gph.
It'll lift whatever you put in there, but Payload is an issue.
BEW of a well-equipped corporate config. 4,900 lbs minimum!
Many around 5,000 lbs.
If it weren't for the great product support, I'd take an AW109S/SP for performance (range/speed vs. payload) over the 429 any day.
Plan on 150 kias only if you're willing to burn 90gph!!!
That's at slightly less than gross wgt. (FAA land 7,000 lb MGW).
82 gph for 140 gph.
It'll lift whatever you put in there, but Payload is an issue.
BEW of a well-equipped corporate config. 4,900 lbs minimum!
Many around 5,000 lbs.
If it weren't for the great product support, I'd take an AW109S/SP for performance (range/speed vs. payload) over the 429 any day.
Notes:
a) As indicated, this comparison is compiled with the benefit of contributions from members of the Rotorheads forum (as well as publicly available information) and, as such, claims no ‘official’ or approved status.
b) Following several comments related to the B429 purchase price, this has been downwardly revised.
c) There are various comments relating to the EC135 fuel burn but, overall, the consensus is that 220kg/h is slightly high and which has led to this figure being reduced to 200kg/h.
d) Based on HeloDrvr's comments the following adjustments have been made in repect of the B429:
i) Fuel burn is recorded as 82gph and a straight conversion to litres (ie. 310lit/h) used in the table.
ii) Basic Weight is increased to 2200kgs leaving a 'useful' load of 970kgs.
iii) Vh amended to 140kts
Awaiting further information to the contrary.
Thanks to all who have contributed.
Why are you comparing fuel burn with different units?
kg/h vs lit/h
Jet A is not water.
1Kg of Jet A1 = approx 1.266 litres
1 litre of Jet A1 = approx 0.79Kg.
(STP assumed)
kg/h vs lit/h
Jet A is not water.
1Kg of Jet A1 = approx 1.266 litres
1 litre of Jet A1 = approx 0.79Kg.
(STP assumed)
Why are you comparing fuel burn with different units?
However, you are right that (in terms of consistency) it is better to maintain the same units so .. please see the revised table (below).
I am using 0.80kg/l as the approx. specific gravity for JetA as mentioned in the note beneath the table.
I have not mentioned 135/429 operating costs or depreciation. Regarding the latter I believe the 429 may offer a slower rate of depreciation than the 135 in much the same way as resale values compare (in terms of depreciation) between the 350 and 407 but, with relatively few 429's on the used market, this is still difficult to judge.
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None of the two
Hi,
I've been operating various types of helicopters in East Africa for the last 5 years, both single and twins. I also had quite a few clients asking for the same question regarding twin helicopter.
In my opinion it really depends where in Africa you want to operate. In East Africa for example, the main hub is Wilson airport, Nairobi. Nowhere else you'll get maintenance support.
Also comparing helicopters on paper doesn't make any sense to me. You need to make sure that the type you want to get can do the job and can get the proper optional such as sand filters, blade tapes or floats. I remember a company in Sudan trying to operate a EC145 without sand filters: After 70 hours we found the axial compressor blades quite badly eroded.
Let's face the fact: Other than Southern Africa forget about Bell, they have no network for support at all, and you need someone on site to assist you. The british army is operating B212 from Nanyuki and they are such a pain! Too slow, can't fly above 12,000ft, massive maintenance penalty.
MD has a lovely machine but they are dying and won't provide any kind of support. Maintaining a MD530 is already a huge ball-ache.
For me the best compromise for medium twins in Africa are:
- EC145
- AS365N3
That is based on experience, not reading graphs. They are simple and robust, there is some licensed engineers and AMO available locally and all parts can be found easily. The EC135 is a really nice machine, but no one is operating it around here which means you're on your own.
Hope it helps
BR
I've been operating various types of helicopters in East Africa for the last 5 years, both single and twins. I also had quite a few clients asking for the same question regarding twin helicopter.
In my opinion it really depends where in Africa you want to operate. In East Africa for example, the main hub is Wilson airport, Nairobi. Nowhere else you'll get maintenance support.
Also comparing helicopters on paper doesn't make any sense to me. You need to make sure that the type you want to get can do the job and can get the proper optional such as sand filters, blade tapes or floats. I remember a company in Sudan trying to operate a EC145 without sand filters: After 70 hours we found the axial compressor blades quite badly eroded.
Let's face the fact: Other than Southern Africa forget about Bell, they have no network for support at all, and you need someone on site to assist you. The british army is operating B212 from Nanyuki and they are such a pain! Too slow, can't fly above 12,000ft, massive maintenance penalty.
MD has a lovely machine but they are dying and won't provide any kind of support. Maintaining a MD530 is already a huge ball-ache.
For me the best compromise for medium twins in Africa are:
- EC145
- AS365N3
That is based on experience, not reading graphs. They are simple and robust, there is some licensed engineers and AMO available locally and all parts can be found easily. The EC135 is a really nice machine, but no one is operating it around here which means you're on your own.
Hope it helps
BR
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@Savi,
...to be more precise, a few data from EC135P2+ Flight Manual...
MTOM is 2910 kg, but can be extended to 2950 kg (supplement in FM), so, we can say 2950 kg
MAX. RANGE
From FLM ... TOM 2910 kg, CAS=104 kt, PA 5000 ft, ISA = 372 nm (or 390 nm for 98 kt / 10.000 ft) ... on SL is 362 nm.
MAX. ENDURANCE (without reserve), usable fuel 560 kg (710 lit)
From FLM ...TOM 2300 kg, CAS 90 kt, PA 5000 ft, ISA = 03h 58min
...TOM 2910 kg, CAS 100 kt,PA 5000 ft, ISA = 03h 24 min
...TOM 2910 kg, CAS 70 kt, PA 5000 ft, ISA = 03h 36 min
...TOM 2910 kg, CAS 70 kt, SEA LEVEL, ISA = 03h 54 min
JR
...to be more precise, a few data from EC135P2+ Flight Manual...
MTOM is 2910 kg, but can be extended to 2950 kg (supplement in FM), so, we can say 2950 kg
MAX. RANGE
From FLM ... TOM 2910 kg, CAS=104 kt, PA 5000 ft, ISA = 372 nm (or 390 nm for 98 kt / 10.000 ft) ... on SL is 362 nm.
MAX. ENDURANCE (without reserve), usable fuel 560 kg (710 lit)
From FLM ...TOM 2300 kg, CAS 90 kt, PA 5000 ft, ISA = 03h 58min
...TOM 2910 kg, CAS 100 kt,PA 5000 ft, ISA = 03h 24 min
...TOM 2910 kg, CAS 70 kt, PA 5000 ft, ISA = 03h 36 min
...TOM 2910 kg, CAS 70 kt, SEA LEVEL, ISA = 03h 54 min
JR
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Could the bad Bell support be down to the after effects of them changing their computer system which holds the stock, which I am led to believe bombed spectacularly...
Jet Ranger is correct but if you buy a new EC135 won't it be a P2e or even a P3 which will mean MTOW will be 2950kgs and 2980kgs....
Jet Ranger is correct but if you buy a new EC135 won't it be a P2e or even a P3 which will mean MTOW will be 2950kgs and 2980kgs....
@Savoia - P2 and P2+ although they have FLI markings, these have different torque values for the same FLI reading. FLI 10 is max. which in respect to the torque values are equal to 75% for P2 and 78% for P2+ (torque per engine).
@Brilliant Stuff: Cruising speed on EC135 is reduced by 5kts for SX-16, 4kts for FLIR and 6kts for loudspeakers... your police config reaches 130kts IAS or TAS at what PA? In clean config your EC would reach almost 145 kts... or is that the FIAT 109 we are talking about?
@Brilliant Stuff: Cruising speed on EC135 is reduced by 5kts for SX-16, 4kts for FLIR and 6kts for loudspeakers... your police config reaches 130kts IAS or TAS at what PA? In clean config your EC would reach almost 145 kts... or is that the FIAT 109 we are talking about?
At max continuous, we cruise at 130/132kts IAS with FLIR and Nitesun 2.
