Helicopter down in NYC (Oct 2011)
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 134
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From: England
Possible causes?
An awful tragedy, but one that the NTSB should be able to resolve in a fairly simple way, with the pilot and some of the passengers surviving.
I heard there were gusts, but not their strength. Gusts could have done to this Bell 206 what it did to the UK based EC 120 I flew earlier this year (see heli down at Redhill thread) - a variant of LTE.
Alternatively I have experienced tail rotor driveshaft bearing failure in certain Bell machines - with tell tale evidence.
Either way, I hope the survivors continue to recover, and an NTSB report is issued without delay.
I heard there were gusts, but not their strength. Gusts could have done to this Bell 206 what it did to the UK based EC 120 I flew earlier this year (see heli down at Redhill thread) - a variant of LTE.
Alternatively I have experienced tail rotor driveshaft bearing failure in certain Bell machines - with tell tale evidence.
Either way, I hope the survivors continue to recover, and an NTSB report is issued without delay.
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 134
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From: England
Part 91 Operation
Interesting that Part 91 flights like this can seemingly operate in the Manhattan area with very limited insurance cover (for passengers and third party liability)... as compared with Part 135 etc...
Joined: Feb 2008
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From: New York City
Originally Posted by ILblog
Sorry for offtopic. Any more info about LTE on EC120?
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/200...fact-myth.html
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From: EU
No life jackets or floats as not required.
Joined: Mar 2001
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From: Europe
I took a sight seeing flight from there about 18 months ago. I was given a good pre flight brief and life jacket. The only bit I felt uncomfortable with, but being a helicopter pilot maybe a bit pessimistic, was the single engine over downtown Manhatten. I thought there was nowhere to go if the donk stepped out. It is all a bit rushed there though, so can see how weight and balance can catch them out.
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From: West Wales and Zug, Switzerland
This wasn't one of the normal sight seeing flights they only go from wall street now. This was a private flight the pilot was giving his friends a trip round Manhattan hence no life vests. Just like London if the donk quits then its a swim.
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From: New York City
Originally Posted by Vortex what...ouch!
The only bit I felt uncomfortable with, but being a helicopter pilot maybe a bit pessimistic, was the single engine over downtown Manhatten.
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From: Toledo, OH
Having flown into the East River for 2 summers, I found the NW winds can make for some interesting times. With 15 to 25 Kt winds, the air flow can come over the buildings and then down along the west bank of the river. When added to the wind eddys coming around the buildings, it can be a little sporty. Without knowing more, I really do not want to second guess what the pilot did.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
Joined: Jun 2004
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From: Chabanais, France
As the flight was Private, not for hire or reward, I think the only personal insurance effected will be any policies the pax may have had themselves, (and may not include cover whilst flying in a private aircraft).
The aircraft will be covered by it's hull insurance, if not self insured by the owner.
The third party legal liability insurance, i.e. the cover for tall buildings etc. etc. is possibly a mandated amount, set by the FAA(?), and would probably be higher for flights around New York than somewhere out in the Mid West.
The aircraft will be covered by it's hull insurance, if not self insured by the owner.
The third party legal liability insurance, i.e. the cover for tall buildings etc. etc. is possibly a mandated amount, set by the FAA(?), and would probably be higher for flights around New York than somewhere out in the Mid West.
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From: Center of the Universe
possibly a mandated amount, set by the FAA(?),
Been at this for a very long time and AFAIK no insurance of any kind mandated by the FAA, at least for Part 91 ops. Have I missed something?
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From: South East Asia
The provision of floats, liferaft and lifejackets may not be required by the prevailing regulations for this particular helicopter but that does not mean they're prohibited. Whatever happened to common sense? If you're operating a single-engine helicopter low and slow over water - regardless of the distance from shore - don't you need to consider all possibilites. This helicopter was clearly within autorotative distance from shore but its height, due to its proximity of the helipad, was of no use to the pilot.
So far, only 'golfyankeesierra' in his Post #27 seems to have grasped this.
So far, only 'golfyankeesierra' in his Post #27 seems to have grasped this.
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From: UK
Joined: Nov 2006
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From: UK
As someone who has experienced the pax end of an NYC trip, and is a heli pilot, could anyone explain to me exactly what use floats would have been in this incident? The eyewitness reports vary from "upside down" to "nose first". If indeed the heli did go in at an angle, then floats would most likely have made the incident more violent - if the pilot had time to deploy them.
The death was maybe unavoidable. The victim was a large lady in the back of a 206. People next to her escaped. She didn't.
Surely, before the politicians get their knee-jerk going, the industry must ask a collective question. Are any public transport ops safe from such a location? Would a fully loaded twin do any better? I doubt it - and this incident may not be EF.
I refuse to be a speculator - but I hope all avenues will be exposed fairly and that tail rotor design & performance is given a thorough look.
And W&B.
The death was maybe unavoidable. The victim was a large lady in the back of a 206. People next to her escaped. She didn't.
Surely, before the politicians get their knee-jerk going, the industry must ask a collective question. Are any public transport ops safe from such a location? Would a fully loaded twin do any better? I doubt it - and this incident may not be EF.
I refuse to be a speculator - but I hope all avenues will be exposed fairly and that tail rotor design & performance is given a thorough look.
And W&B.
Joined: Nov 2007
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From: Yellow Brick Road
JB, having floats and lifejackets is not about eliminating accidents but reducing the risk of death or injury to persons.
I should add that, further to my post #14, there was a time in the past when I did a lot of harbour scenic flights in a helicopter. Not only did it have pop-out floats, we insisted on everyone wearing the type of lifevest which would only inflate if commanded, rather than the marine variety which automatically deployed when in contact with water. The obvious reason is because an inflated lifejacket may hamper emergency egress from a submerged helicopter.
That said, passengers don't go through HUET training, do they ? Nor do they wear a helmet like I do - the head is probably the least protected part of the body in such circumstances.
I should add that, further to my post #14, there was a time in the past when I did a lot of harbour scenic flights in a helicopter. Not only did it have pop-out floats, we insisted on everyone wearing the type of lifevest which would only inflate if commanded, rather than the marine variety which automatically deployed when in contact with water. The obvious reason is because an inflated lifejacket may hamper emergency egress from a submerged helicopter.
That said, passengers don't go through HUET training, do they ? Nor do they wear a helmet like I do - the head is probably the least protected part of the body in such circumstances.