SAR offshore letdown procedure
Goodness me, the annual cat check/line check for a PNF on the civsar fleet must be very extensive - as well as all the flying, navigating, RT, monitoring the PF and aircraft systems - he needs to be checked out on his radar letdowns and FLIR skills - he/she must be paid twice as much as the Captain for all that expertise.
A proper, independent safety case for radar letdowns, IMC overwater was conducted by one of the bidders for SARH - they then changed their spec from a 120 radar to a 360 one - why do you think that was?
Not saying the Sea King system is perfect - removing the blind arc would help a lot but it is much better to be able to see into an area where you are going to turn (not possible with a 120 without even more manoeuvring) and being able to stay heading into wind whilst you manoeuvre to radar minimums sideways or backwards makes for much safer operations.
PS the radar and FLIR screens are visible from the door when the Radop is winching
A proper, independent safety case for radar letdowns, IMC overwater was conducted by one of the bidders for SARH - they then changed their spec from a 120 radar to a 360 one - why do you think that was?
Not saying the Sea King system is perfect - removing the blind arc would help a lot but it is much better to be able to see into an area where you are going to turn (not possible with a 120 without even more manoeuvring) and being able to stay heading into wind whilst you manoeuvre to radar minimums sideways or backwards makes for much safer operations.
PS the radar and FLIR screens are visible from the door when the Radop is winching
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CRAB
Goodness me, the annual cat check/line check for a PNF on the civsar fleet must be very extensive - as well as all the flying, navigating, RT, monitoring the PF and aircraft systems - he needs to be checked out on his radar letdowns and FLIR skills - he/she must be paid twice as much as the Captain for all that expertise.
A proper, independent safety case for radar letdowns, IMC overwater was conducted by one of the bidders for SARH - they then changed their spec from a 120 radar to a 360 one - why do you think that was?
Not saying the Sea King system is perfect - removing the blind arc would help a lot but it is much better to be able to see into an area where you are going to turn (not possible with a 120 without even more manoeuvring) and being able to stay heading into wind whilst you manoeuvre to radar minimums sideways or backwards makes for much safer operations.
PS the radar and FLIR screens are visible from the door when the Radop is winching
So, unlike a Radop who is extensively trained and checked to be able to accurately utilise the radar in difficult situations, the PNF just gets on with it and it's OK because the Captain (who also isn't a Radop) is watching him - that sounds like a very safe way of doing things, no wonder the CAA were so impressed
How will the PNF with his 120 radar spot another vessel about to take you up the chuff in the dark/fog? I think the safety case looked at other situations rather than just the basic letdown and threat from ahead
How will the PNF with his 120 radar spot another vessel about to take you up the chuff in the dark/fog? I think the safety case looked at other situations rather than just the basic letdown and threat from ahead
Crab
In what situation do you see a vessel taking you up the chuff? I ask as im having a hard time thinking when this would be a issue...not to pick a fight.
Cheers
In what situation do you see a vessel taking you up the chuff? I ask as im having a hard time thinking when this would be a issue...not to pick a fight.
Cheers
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Crab
Like Lioncopter...
Me too?
During the let-down in this magical black art of tweaking a radar to do a job. it is usual for one to note where various surface contacts are, (no we don't plot them blah blah) if it looks like we might get run over by a contact approaching where we want to be (stationary case) then we might just talk to someone about it
Once on the job with the rear crew unseated and working then yes we are now at the mercy of that mystery vessel taking us up the A@*#. But unless Biggles is still in his seat looking at your 330 degree radar then he too is in the door working and you too are the mercy of being bug#*%'@ from behind
Once the job is done we can see(radar) what’s directly ahead for our transition up without a nose turn like a Sea King
TAWS wise we have a 360 degree digital idea of where terrain is during this positioning let-down to supplement the radar and a moving map.
Nuff said?? Who says the CAA has problems with it?? It’s been done for 25+ years and the kit is even better then then, same old crusty crews though, but hey we know jack sh1t and submit to your omnipotent like qualities.
Me too?
During the let-down in this magical black art of tweaking a radar to do a job
. it is usual for one to note where various surface contacts are, (no we don't plot them blah blah) if it looks like we might get run over by a contact approaching where we want to be (stationary case) then we might just talk to someone about itOnce on the job with the rear crew unseated and working then yes we are now at the mercy of that mystery vessel taking us up the A@*#. But unless Biggles is still in his seat looking at your 330 degree radar then he too is in the door working and you too are the mercy of being bug#*%'@ from behind
Once the job is done we can see(radar) what’s directly ahead for our transition up without a nose turn like a Sea King
TAWS wise we have a 360 degree digital idea of where terrain is during this positioning let-down to supplement the radar and a moving map.
Nuff said?? Who says the CAA has problems with it?? It’s been done for 25+ years and the kit is even better then then, same old crusty crews though, but hey we know jack sh1t and submit to your omnipotent like qualities.
How about a low level search for a MOB in a shipping lane?
Or just night training near busy shipping areas? This has been an issue and the day was saved by the Radop monitoring the radar from the door!
Or drum winching (grapnel for RN types) or night wets at night in a 5 kt tide going backwards to maintain station?
NRDK - so if you don't plot them how do you keep tabs on them? Ah yes the force Luke, that will keep your real-time picture updated - again a very safe SOP
Once the job is done it is hardly a problem to yaw in the hover for a blind arc clearance. What do you do if there are obstacles ahead and you need to turn during the trans up??? I know, turn less than 60 degrees - whereas with the SK you can see all around (once blind arc clearance complete) and know EXACTLY where all the radar contacts/land masses are.
Is TAWS cleared for IMC letdown use? It does not use radar, just GPS and any plot slippage won't be evident. A moving map display is also GPS based and, over the sea, just gives you a big black space, cluttered with symbology - very useful.
Or just night training near busy shipping areas? This has been an issue and the day was saved by the Radop monitoring the radar from the door!
Or drum winching (grapnel for RN types) or night wets at night in a 5 kt tide going backwards to maintain station?
NRDK - so if you don't plot them how do you keep tabs on them? Ah yes the force Luke, that will keep your real-time picture updated - again a very safe SOP
Once the job is done it is hardly a problem to yaw in the hover for a blind arc clearance. What do you do if there are obstacles ahead and you need to turn during the trans up??? I know, turn less than 60 degrees - whereas with the SK you can see all around (once blind arc clearance complete) and know EXACTLY where all the radar contacts/land masses are.
Is TAWS cleared for IMC letdown use? It does not use radar, just GPS and any plot slippage won't be evident. A moving map display is also GPS based and, over the sea, just gives you a big black space, cluttered with symbology - very useful.
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Crab
How about a low level search for a MOB in a shipping lane?
Or just night training near busy shipping areas? This has been an issue and the day was saved by the Radop monitoring the radar from the door!
Or drum winching (grapnel for RN types) or night wets at night in a 5 kt tide going backwards to maintain station?
Or just night training near busy shipping areas? This has been an issue and the day was saved by the Radop monitoring the radar from the door!
Or drum winching (grapnel for RN types) or night wets at night in a 5 kt tide going backwards to maintain station?
Once the job is done it is hardly a problem to yaw in the hover for a blind arc clearance. What do you do if there are obstacles ahead and you need to turn during the Trans up??? I know, turn less than 60 degrees - whereas with the SK you can see all around (once blind arc clearance complete) and know EXACTLY where all the radar contacts/land masses are.
Is TAWS cleared for IMC let-down use? It does not use radar, just GPS and any plot slippage won't be evident. A moving map display is also GPS based and, over the sea, just gives you a big black space, cluttered with symbology - very useful.
just saying it gets done daily, year in & out by crews other than the light blue.
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just saying it gets done daily, year in & out by crews other than the light blue
Only the RAF can do Search and Rescue. No one else is competent or safe enough to conduct such arduous missions. I do not believe that once someone leaves the military they would be able to do the same job when civilian - it's just impossible. Just like operating anything other than a Sea King in a SAR role. Wastelands should sell the Sea King to the Algerians instead of Merlins for SAR and not teach them with civilian crew either - they will not be able to teach military crews how to conduct SAROps.
My alarm has just woken me from the strangest dream.............
Quiz - How many RADOps/Navs/OBS become Pilots and why?
How many Winchmen become Pilots and why?
How many Pilots become Radops/Nav/OBS ?
Radar handling is not a black art and neither is piloting.
SAR makes use of many tools to achieve the end result.
Manchester - not a demigod, just someone who enjoys touching the raw nerves of those who are a bit too sensitive. The truth hurts, they say - maybe that's why there is such vociferous denial whenever I mention the radar issue - methinks the lady doth protest too much!
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Crab
Well Crab, you tend to wind up your own colleagues more than anything. The rest of us love baiting the hook for you with some good old banter too. But seriously….
The original question was about SAR IMC let-downs…..
The RAF, RN & CG units all do it in their own ways and quite successfully.
Picture this for a moment though……you get transported to another part of the Country that’s not your familiar patch e.g. Western Scotland. Mission: a coastal type, plenty of Islands around etc. Night & Cloud down to 100-200’ or so, raining. Now as the RAF/RN front seat you have no idea up at MSA(IMC) where you actually are and what the ‘Big Picture’ looks like do you. Only what the Nav/Obs tells you, correct?
Now, the 2 front seat CG pilots have an exact model of situational awareness. With a moving map system, EGPWS Terrain Digital map, and 120 Degree radar that is more than good enough to clear the final approach path to the place they want to be. The FMS/Auto-pilot can handle all the transitioning whilst the 2 crew watch this picture unfolding. Not listening to 1 person telling them how it is. Remember the FLIR is of no use IMC.
Now as a pilot does that not sound like a great scenario?
Now you have a couple of seriously injured survivors on board and have to get back up. Fly to X airport via the ILS and the weather is really pants. You are sitting in the hover at night just below the cloud base, in the place your Rad/Obs placed you. The paramedic really needs the help keep these survivors medically stable. What do you do?
CG crew know where they are. Can get up (they can always get it up) to SALT, transit to a fully coupled ILS to a 50’ auto-level at the runway. All while the 2 rear crew are still doing first aid. Still sound good?
The original question was about SAR IMC let-downs…..
The RAF, RN & CG units all do it in their own ways and quite successfully.
Picture this for a moment though……you get transported to another part of the Country that’s not your familiar patch e.g. Western Scotland. Mission: a coastal type, plenty of Islands around etc. Night & Cloud down to 100-200’ or so, raining. Now as the RAF/RN front seat you have no idea up at MSA(IMC) where you actually are and what the ‘Big Picture’ looks like do you. Only what the Nav/Obs tells you, correct?
Now, the 2 front seat CG pilots have an exact model of situational awareness. With a moving map system, EGPWS Terrain Digital map, and 120 Degree radar that is more than good enough to clear the final approach path to the place they want to be. The FMS/Auto-pilot can handle all the transitioning whilst the 2 crew watch this picture unfolding. Not listening to 1 person telling them how it is. Remember the FLIR is of no use IMC.
Now as a pilot does that not sound like a great scenario?
Now you have a couple of seriously injured survivors on board and have to get back up. Fly to X airport via the ILS and the weather is really pants. You are sitting in the hover at night just below the cloud base, in the place your Rad/Obs placed you. The paramedic really needs the help keep these survivors medically stable. What do you do?
CG crew know where they are. Can get up (they can always get it up
) to SALT, transit to a fully coupled ILS to a 50’ auto-level at the runway. All while the 2 rear crew are still doing first aid. Still sound good?
NRDK - as I said before, the Sea King system isn't perfect and a full 360 radar with a monitor screen in the front would be wonderful, but the fact remains that I would far rather trust my life to an expert radop who can concentrate 100% on the letdown with no distractions, in any conditions, anywhere in the world rather than rely on the cojo.
How often do your cojos actually practice radar letdowns? Pretty much every sortie for the Radops!
All the clever extras are nice but the only accurate assessment of how close you are to the coast/ship/target is a radar return.
How often do your cojos actually practice radar letdowns? Pretty much every sortie for the Radops!
All the clever extras are nice but the only accurate assessment of how close you are to the coast/ship/target is a radar return.
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Crab – Not that you really read the scenarios and moved outside your 1980’s sandpit, your answer was bang on target in your usual way.
Well there you have it for those that asked about SAR IMC let-downs…..All scenarios aside, as long as 1 person can provide a talk down with his 330 degree Searchwater radar, that’s all you need for a safe let down.
I wonder what your Ex-SAR colleagues that have had a go at the Non-RAF/RN way think about the equipment they have at their disposal. I think that with only 1 still left (LF)@EGPO perhaps an update from that person would enlighten you.
Well there you have it for those that asked about SAR IMC let-downs…..All scenarios aside, as long as 1 person can provide a talk down with his 330 degree Searchwater radar, that’s all you need for a safe let down.
I wonder what your Ex-SAR colleagues that have had a go at the Non-RAF/RN way think about the equipment they have at their disposal. I think that with only 1 still left (LF)@EGPO perhaps an update from that person would enlighten you.
Well Ok , if you want the specific scenarios then a map and the GPS/CDNU/RNAV gives as accurate a big picture as the symbology on a tv screen/MFD. Plus you have 2 people monitoring the nav - the copilot and the Radop - so you have a check and balance not available to the FMS equipped co pilot - how many times has a cojo misplotted the grid? When the Radop is monitoring you have instant confirmation or correction. It may not be 21st century but it works.
Scenario 2 - it is not the letdown itself that is the important part - even the Mk31 FCS on the Mk3 Sea King can do that bit - it is all the manoeuvring and clearing of that area (as ever it is all in the setup) where the Radop has the advantage with the 330 radar. Having flown the 139 with all the bells and whistles, it was only the FLIR that gave any useful SA during the letdowns at night, the EGPWS constantly bleats near land and the digital map shows a picture that is not real, just an electronic representation of the database and mostly black over the sea - however, being able to see the land/target dead ahead is a plus.
Scenario 3 - RAF/RN crew know where they are (map and GPS again) IF abort to above SALT and fly to airport for ILS the man's way - uncoupled (why we practise a lot I guess) but not to a 50' DH (your kit can do it but is it legal?) I thought the JAROPs 3 minima for ILS was 200'. Do you and the specific airport have CAT 2 or 3 autoland capability? Other than the transup the radop would be free to do all that messy medical stuff so no real difference there.
It occurs to me that if you are ex-RN, you are still thinking RN SKs where the Observer has the CDNU in the back - not so on Mk 3s and 3As where it is firmly where it needs to be - with the co-pilot - so plenty of SA available at all times.
Scenario 2 - it is not the letdown itself that is the important part - even the Mk31 FCS on the Mk3 Sea King can do that bit - it is all the manoeuvring and clearing of that area (as ever it is all in the setup) where the Radop has the advantage with the 330 radar. Having flown the 139 with all the bells and whistles, it was only the FLIR that gave any useful SA during the letdowns at night, the EGPWS constantly bleats near land and the digital map shows a picture that is not real, just an electronic representation of the database and mostly black over the sea - however, being able to see the land/target dead ahead is a plus.
Scenario 3 - RAF/RN crew know where they are (map and GPS again) IF abort to above SALT and fly to airport for ILS the man's way - uncoupled (why we practise a lot I guess) but not to a 50' DH (your kit can do it but is it legal?) I thought the JAROPs 3 minima for ILS was 200'. Do you and the specific airport have CAT 2 or 3 autoland capability? Other than the transup the radop would be free to do all that messy medical stuff so no real difference there.
It occurs to me that if you are ex-RN, you are still thinking RN SKs where the Observer has the CDNU in the back - not so on Mk 3s and 3As where it is firmly where it needs to be - with the co-pilot - so plenty of SA available at all times.
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Back to the original question.
Can someone who has done an IMC letdown in strong on-shore wind conditions (ie where the wind speed precludes hovering downwind) using a 120-degree radar describe how they got on?
We will then be able to compare procedures (Crab has provided a detailed description of how he and his milSAR mates conduct it) and decide which is best for ourselves. Radical, I know, and not in the finest traditions of Pprune name calling.
Regards,
CD
Can someone who has done an IMC letdown in strong on-shore wind conditions (ie where the wind speed precludes hovering downwind) using a 120-degree radar describe how they got on?
We will then be able to compare procedures (Crab has provided a detailed description of how he and his milSAR mates conduct it) and decide which is best for ourselves. Radical, I know, and not in the finest traditions of Pprune name calling.
Regards,
CD
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In all fairness, it is necessary to consider the out-of-wind and hover performance limits of the various platforms when doing this type of analysis.
If the machine can hover crosswind at 45 kts and downwind at 30 it has a huge manoeuvre advantage over a SK, and the number of events where the approach capability is unavailable is very small indeed. Of course, the machine may well now be committed in the hover, or require an escape manoeuvre that's not practicable without near-360 radar, but SK is committed in the hover in a lot of other situations. Competing priorities, and that's why experienced crews with well-developed judgement are important.
Iain
Anyone need a SAR pilot?
If the machine can hover crosswind at 45 kts and downwind at 30 it has a huge manoeuvre advantage over a SK, and the number of events where the approach capability is unavailable is very small indeed. Of course, the machine may well now be committed in the hover, or require an escape manoeuvre that's not practicable without near-360 radar, but SK is committed in the hover in a lot of other situations. Competing priorities, and that's why experienced crews with well-developed judgement are important.
Iain
Anyone need a SAR pilot?
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Crab,
Speaking of raw nerves Crab, how do you explain the private message you sent me a few years ago in which you referred to me as a 'complete ***'?
Methinks your nerves are a bit too sensitive too!!!
If you're going to dish it out you should be able to take it yourself instead of resorting to insults via private message.
Lost
PS Yes, I have been waiting years for this opportunity but it's always worthwhile pointing out your inconsistencies!
PSS How strange this debate has turned into your favourite argument. Is the original poster your Irish cousin???
Manchester - not a demigod, just someone who enjoys touching the raw nerves of those who are a bit too sensitive. The truth hurts, they say
Methinks your nerves are a bit too sensitive too!!!
If you're going to dish it out you should be able to take it yourself instead of resorting to insults via private message.
Lost
PS Yes, I have been waiting years for this opportunity but it's always worthwhile pointing out your inconsistencies!
PSS How strange this debate has turned into your favourite argument. Is the original poster your Irish cousin???
Lost, I seem to recall the pm was as a result of some of the things you said about me on a public forum - I chose to keep my reply between us and I believe you fully warranted the epithet