Firefighter's request for discussion about LZ video

[TRC]

So, for the fire fighters discussion, JUMP SHOUT WAIVE etc etc and get the pilots attention

A great idea - of course they should. The trouble is, they haven't been trained to marshal helicopters so they dont. See this picture, it sums it up perfectly. The observer hanging out of the open door and a horde of Emerg Services blokes standing watching with their arms folded, with a "Nothing-to-do-with-me-mate" attitude.

There was a thread on here recently asking what you would do as a pilot if someone was attempting to marshal you, and you were unsure of their capabilities/motives.

[Flyting]

There is a difference between marshaling and getting a pilots attention when they put their tail rotor into a dangerous position.
As for the marshaling post, I for one don't follow people on the ground unless I know them. Besides, you should know your size (helicopter) and where you can put it....

Here are a few nice tight LZ's in the beginning...
http://www.slv.dk/Dokumenter/dsweb/Get/Document-8342

[TRC]

There is a difference between marshaling and getting a pilots attention when they put their tail rotor into a dangerous position

Exactly.

So, my point is why aren't Senior Emergency Services personnel trained to marshal?

A pilot under positive marshalling from the off is far better placed than suddenly having people jumping up and down and pointing - that's assuming that he's looking at them at he time.

How many were trying to let the pilot know he was heading for trouble in that video?

None.

[Epiphany]

I've never been marshalled from the ground at a HEMS scene - nor would I take much notice if I had been - Emergency Service people do not get enough practice and never would get enough to be competent in a controlled situation let alone an adrenalin fuelled one.

What my crew expected was to be assured that if the road were the ONLY option (and it should always be a last resort in my opinion for TC's reasons) that there were no visible wires and that the traffic had been stopped in both directions. They are often too busy to do much more anyway.

What I would like to know is why one of the rear crew was not observing from an open door on the wire side and conning the pilot. In my EMS days the crewman or (trained) paramedic would always have this responsibility when taking off from a confined area - even in a small helicopter. Basic airmanship/CRM/MCC.

[TRC]

- nor would I take much notice if I had been -

So a scheme like an abridged version of the Mil Landing Point Commander course for Station Officers and the like would be a bad idea?

They are often too busy to do much more anyway

So, let someone else who isn't pre-occupied with their primary tasks concentrate on it.

[Epiphany]

So a scheme like an abridged version of the Mil Landing Point Commander course for Station Officers and the like would be a bad idea?

Certainly not. Any further training is obviously a benefit. I would be very interested in talking with an officer on scene to obtain as much information as possible to locate a suitable landing site. Wires are always more visible from the ground and if there is a qualified person there to assess a HLS then so much the better. I just don't see where marshalling a helicopter would be of much use.

So, let someone else who isn't pre-occupied with their primary tasks concentrate on it.

I must have flown to hundreds of accidents in my 15 years as a HEMS pilot and don't think I can remember any where Police, Ambulance or Fire and Rescue Officers were standing around doing nothing. In fact at many of the scenes even I ended up either directing traffic, holding infusion drips, comforting relatives or carrying stretchers.

[FlightPathOBN]

oh great, I am dating myself again....

many of the older helo decks at hospitals appear to be an afterthought anyways...

as far as the ground situation, wouldnt it be prudent to give the firefighters some basic hand signal training? or is this just too much liability?

[N707ZS]

The wire he cut looked more like a phone line, the higher one was a power line with transformers on the poles and a much thicker wire. There was also no explosion.

[Epiphany]

Another problem is that (in my experience) the few times that I have seen someone attempting to marshall me at a scene they have invariably chosen the wrong place. It has either been too close to an obstruction, the surface wasn't suitable, they were seriously underestimating the downwash and were standing far too close or my crewman was giving me totally different instructions. Or on one memorable occasion they had marked the only suitable landing site with a large sheet held down by 4 small rocks.

So I ended up landing in a different spot and the helpful marshaller gets annoyed and thinks that I intentionally ignored the signals so I am an ignorant prick who has made him look very silly in front of his colleagues. So I have to go up and explain why I chose not to do what he wanted.

By all means give as much information to the pilot as possible over the radio then if you think you have found a suitable place tell him that you will stand there and indicate it. Raise your arms above your head and lower them to indicate the landing area and direction then get out of the way and let the crew do their thing.

If the pilot then doesn't don't thank you for doing that - he very probably is an ignorant prick.

[TRC]

... Police, Ambulance or Fire and Rescue Officers were standing around doing nothing

The photo linked in post 21 shows exactly that. Maybe it's an isolated example.

.. just don't see where marshalling a helicopter would be of much use

Like in the video that sparked this thread for example?

...they have invariably chosen the wrong place.... either been too close to an obstruction...

Like the pilot of the S76 did in the video?

.. the surface wasn't suitable, they were seriously underestimating the downwash and were standing far too close or my crewman was giving me totally different instructions. ... they had marked the only suitable landing site with a large sheet held down by 4 small rocks.

LPC training required?

So it's OK for Public Service helicopters to continue to hack down lamp posts, traffic lights, overhead cables, etc. Chop up metal signs with their main rotor that they have sucked from garage walls or get stuck on railway lines??

So far I haven't heard elsewhere or read here any valid reason for not training certain Emergency Services personnel to be some sort of Landing Point Commander (for want of a better name).

I really don't accept the argument against proper, formal training that would be of valuable assistance to pilots and go a long way to avoiding incidents as shown in the video.

[Epiphany]

TRC,

The sole reason for the S-76 accident that sparked this was that the pilot/crew didn't do what they are paid to do and instead f*cked up the take off - in a spectacular fashion.

The safety of the aircraft is the PIC's responsibility and that is why no pilot with any common sense will obey the instructions of a marshaller that he does not know or trust when taking off from a confined area.

Now - try ignoring the marshaller at Battersea heliport and you'll get your arse chewed but they know exactly what they are doing and do it many times every day. Mind you, if I taxied into another helicopter or the wall whilst obeying the instructions it would still be my fault - not theirs.

TRC - you have got your knickers in a twist over this and clearly nothing that I can say will change your opinion - nor you mine.

Nice talking with you.

[TRC]

TRC - you have got your knickers in a twist over this and clearly nothing that I can say will change your opinion - nor you mine.

What do I know, eh?

Nice talking with you

Likewise

[jpalmos]

I've talked with pilots before (I'm a skydiver, of course I do.lol). None of them fly air ambulances. So they just say "not sure" because it is a different situation than landing at an airport.

None the less, for the few approtunities that I do get to talk to the EMS pilots, I get vauge answers. The usual answer I get is.

Just give us a 30m X 30m area and we'll put it there.

I don't know if they keep it vague like that because of the theory of "Knowing just enough to get you into trouble" or it's just ego. I'm not pointing a finger by any means. That is just the answer that I get. When I operate the ladder truck and I get people asking me what would help me. I usually say "just let me handle it" because there is a lot to operating a ladder truck and incorrect information would create a really bad outcome. Not that I don't want them to, it's just a lot of information to be processing and if you don't do it all the time. There's a lot of things that could be easily missed and mess everything up.

I do a competency test that members must pass if they would like to qualify as the "LZ Officer". Which is pretty basic, but I'm also all about making sure I get the proper information. By no means is the LZ officer in charge of the pilot. The ultimate say comes from the pilot.

So I would say a lack of communication and knowledge is why you don't see emergency personell on the ground communicating to pilots. Obviously the video above is a different situation, but we really don't know what to look out for. With everyone there trying to make a situation better, I would say fear of making it worse is the reason why you don't see anyone reacting. Anyways.....

LZ Officer communicating to the pilot. There is a communication established with the pilot prior to landing.

Obstructions around the LZ and locations.
Wires, buildings, trees, silo's, etc. etc.

Ground wind direction and speed in mph and degrees.

LZ type
Dirt, grass, road, hard, soft, wet.

Grade


Oh. As to why some of the Emergency personell are standing around doing nothing. Here is the reason for some of that.

Fire Department A, B, and C get dispatch to a vehicle accident.

The officer on the scene of the accident determines that the patient needs to be flown to the nearest hospital. He/she advises the dispatch center for the helicopter. Fire Department D gets dispatched to handle the LZ. Essentially Fire Department D is strictly assigned to the LZ and nothing else. That is also why in the pics you don't see the accident or problem. Because the LZ could be a couple miles down the road to a more suitable place.


PS. That picture of the red virgin helicopter landing in the intersection. I never knew that a helicopter could do that. That looks absolutely crazy.

[Epiphany]

pjalmos,

That Virgin helicopter is the London HEMS machine. The crews are very familiar with the peculiarities of landing in urban areas, get lots of practice and have permission from the CAA to do so. They still make mistakes though and have had a few blades strikes on obstructions and FOD.

When London HEMS started in 1989 the Ambulance Service were reluctant to task the helicopter because they assumed that if the incident was in the City then the helicopter could not land as there was no place large enough and close enough to the scene.

It took the simple step of sending a pilot to the Ambulance Control Centre to look at where the incident was on the street map and then convincing the Controller that it was possible to land the helicopter nearby. You'd be surprised how many parks and public gardens there are in central London.

If the only place to land was not close enough then the Police would often relay the Doctor and Paramedic to the scene by car from the landing site. Eventually the Ambulance Service realised that the pilots were the only ones who could make the decision from the air and the system began to work.

When the Police also became used to the helicopter they would kindly stop traffic and allow a landing in any large enough area - be that Oxford Circus or The Mall.

Obstructions around the LZ and locations.
Wires, buildings, trees, silo's, etc. etc.
Ground wind direction and speed in mph and degrees.
LZ type -Dirt, grass, road, hard, soft, wet.

If I heard an Officer on the scene giving me that kind of information I would be very grateful. The only other point to consider is possibly the ease of access to the accident scene. Carrying a stretcher over a hedge or stream is quite a handful and can make the difference between a good LZ and a poor one.

A great aid sometimes in rural areas is a smoke grenade or flare (be careful of causing fires) . This instantly shows the LZ from a distance to the pilot and has the added advantage of indicating wind direction and allows the pilot to establish an approach direction. The helicopter will then do a quick recce and if the LZ looks OK it will land.

Be aware that what might look good to you may not be suitable to the crew for some reason or they may be able to see a much better one from their elevated view of the immediate area.

As I mentioned before (and this is just a personal point - others may not agree) I would always rather the Officer on the ground move away and allow the helicopter crew to land where they choose. By all means keep a close eye on things and if you see a problem let them know. Wires in particular are very visible from the ground when silhouetted against the sky but may not be at all visible against the dark background of the earth, grass and trees from above.

Keep up the good work.

[jpalmos]

If I heard an Officer on the scene giving me that kind of information I would be very grateful. The only other point to consider is possibly the ease of access to the accident scene. Carrying a stretcher over a hedge or stream is quite a handful and can make the difference between a good LZ and a poor one.

The only difference with this is. We make an effort to ground transport the patient to the most applicable LZ. More times than not. This puts the LZ a couple of miles away because the transport to a Trauma center is more than 30min.

I have found after doing it several times. It is more efficient to travel a mile or two by ground in an ambulance to an LZ than planting the bird at the accident due to ground hazards. Humping a patient over a fence, through a ditch, and not compromise patient care has been less effiecient than ground travel to a more optimal location.

I appreciate everyones response. I'm far from a "Rotor head". I'm just the medium trying to better educate myself to get my patient out of my disctrict so that I can see him/her again.

[Gomer Pylot]

It depends a lot on the agency and on the accident scene. Some departments here transport to a preplanned LZ almost all the time, and some prefer to set up an ad hoc LZ at the scene. The scene environment makes a big difference, and some are more conducive to landing a helicopter than others. As a pilot, I don't care much, I'll do whatever the ground unit thinks is best, but landing at a prepared LZ does present fewer challenges than an unprepared LZ, both to the pilot and to the ground unit. Just let us know where you want us and we'll be there, but please make an effort to survey the LZ for obstacles and wires. Trees, etc aren't a big issue, but wires and stakes, stumps, etc can be, and I would like to be warned about these, even though I never ever fully trust the ground unit to find all of them. I know they try, but I also know how easily they can be missed. As long as you make the effort, I won't complain.