R44 Pilots On A Budget Required - Denham / Wycombe
Thread Starter
R44 Pilots On A Budget Required - Denham / Wycombe
So there's been a lot of people on this forum asking about why does nobody ever do anything to make flying helicopters cheaper?
I have a group of people that want to buy a helicopter and share it to make the costs of flying rediculously cheap.
Not much commitment required and the figures are a no brainer if you are paying standard rates to SFH at the moment.
We are literally a couple of people short of being able to achieve this and make the cost of flying substantially cheaper than renting through a commercial SFH method.
Any R44 pilots, or other rotary pilots that want to type-rate and fly R44 Raven II that are (seriously) interested should PM me.
If you are interested I have a load of data on the subject and can answer 99% of your questions with some pdfs. that I already have, so please include your email so I can send it to you.
I assume this post doesn't breach the forum rules as it's not for profit and all in the interests of cheap group flying!
CC
P.S. I you are not interested but you know someone that would be - please forward them the info.
I have a group of people that want to buy a helicopter and share it to make the costs of flying rediculously cheap.
Not much commitment required and the figures are a no brainer if you are paying standard rates to SFH at the moment.
We are literally a couple of people short of being able to achieve this and make the cost of flying substantially cheaper than renting through a commercial SFH method.
Any R44 pilots, or other rotary pilots that want to type-rate and fly R44 Raven II that are (seriously) interested should PM me.
If you are interested I have a load of data on the subject and can answer 99% of your questions with some pdfs. that I already have, so please include your email so I can send it to you.
I assume this post doesn't breach the forum rules as it's not for profit and all in the interests of cheap group flying!
CC
P.S. I you are not interested but you know someone that would be - please forward them the info.
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There no such thing as "seriously cheap" helicopter flying (unless you count dodgy home-builds)
The problem with group ownership is when its a nice sunny weekend etc, everyone wants to use it. Hence booking conflicts.
Also, a problem arises when someone wants to sell their share, buyers can be hard to find. And what if X overspeeds the engine, does X pay? or the group? etc etc..
The problem with group ownership is when its a nice sunny weekend etc, everyone wants to use it. Hence booking conflicts.
Also, a problem arises when someone wants to sell their share, buyers can be hard to find. And what if X overspeeds the engine, does X pay? or the group? etc etc..
Thread Starter
Everyone is always so negative.....
Yes - surely people will want to fly when the weather is good, but what's the alternative, phone up the local SFH on the spur of the moment to be told all their aircraft are all available?
Seriously cheap - compared to standard SFH rates. It does exist.
Who said anything about needing to buy/sell a share ? As I said - Minimal Commitment to join the scheme.
If someone overspeeds the engine it's covered by the insurance (typically without an excess - depending on the policy), on the grounds that the insurance recognizes it's less risk to replace an engine than pay for a helicopter falling out of the sky.
The whole essence of the proposal is to take away a lot of the risk associated with "typical" group ownership.
Lordy lordy !
CC
Yes - surely people will want to fly when the weather is good, but what's the alternative, phone up the local SFH on the spur of the moment to be told all their aircraft are all available?
Seriously cheap - compared to standard SFH rates. It does exist.
Who said anything about needing to buy/sell a share ? As I said - Minimal Commitment to join the scheme.
If someone overspeeds the engine it's covered by the insurance (typically without an excess - depending on the policy), on the grounds that the insurance recognizes it's less risk to replace an engine than pay for a helicopter falling out of the sky.
The whole essence of the proposal is to take away a lot of the risk associated with "typical" group ownership.
Lordy lordy !
CC
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Guys,
Youre too negative guys.
Get the rules right and it can work.
I was in a turbine group for 3 years with absolutely no problem. I'm also a member of www.helicoptergrouping.com.
The first rule is to have as few rules as possible
The second rule is to have some sensible limit on "block bookings"
The third rule is ensure that you are all of the same financial bracket. (Sorry, but when there is a requirement for a cash call, you all have to be in a position to afford it)
The fourth rule is ensure you're fixed operating costs are covered by a monthly standing order divided by how many shares there are.
Thats it.
If you want any more help or more information on my positive experience of being in a group. Just ask.
Joel
Youre too negative guys.
Get the rules right and it can work.
I was in a turbine group for 3 years with absolutely no problem. I'm also a member of www.helicoptergrouping.com.
The first rule is to have as few rules as possible
The second rule is to have some sensible limit on "block bookings"
The third rule is ensure that you are all of the same financial bracket. (Sorry, but when there is a requirement for a cash call, you all have to be in a position to afford it)
The fourth rule is ensure you're fixed operating costs are covered by a monthly standing order divided by how many shares there are.
Thats it.
If you want any more help or more information on my positive experience of being in a group. Just ask.
Joel
Better red than ...
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Seriously cheap - compared to standard SFH rates. It does exist.
But there is also some low cost SFH around. The spread from high to low is now very big.
h-r
None of the above proves that any particular Rotorway is 'dodgy' but there's no doubt that many of them are just as many are of exceptionally good build quality.
However as they are non certified, the onus for mechanical safety moves from the LAME to the builder/owner so a much higher level of care and responsibility is required and that's definitely partly why the accident rate is high.
However as they are non certified, the onus for mechanical safety moves from the LAME to the builder/owner so a much higher level of care and responsibility is required and that's definitely partly why the accident rate is high.
Thread Starter
Cheap vs. Affordable
redeye
In my opinion it is a question of perception and my perception is that cheap means about 30-40% less than the "normal" price.
Obviously paying insurance, hangar, maintenance and all the other things is an overhead which has to be dispersed by the number of people flying over the number of hours being flown, so if you only fly your own aircraft 25 hours a year - it's never going to be cheap, but if you are a multi-millionaire it's probably still affordable.
I agree perhaps cheap isn't the best word to use in conjunction with flying helicopters, despite the best efforts of people like Mr Robinson.
I do know that it is possible to get R44 SFH as low as £250-300+VAT particularly if you buy blocks, or it's an Astro/Raven 1 about to run out of time but still has hours, but I haven't seen anything like that in the London area for a Raven 2, generally we are talking over £100 ph more.
Anyone that knows where I can ad-hoc rent a Raven 2 for that kind of money - I'd be interested :-)
CC
In my opinion it is a question of perception and my perception is that cheap means about 30-40% less than the "normal" price.
Obviously paying insurance, hangar, maintenance and all the other things is an overhead which has to be dispersed by the number of people flying over the number of hours being flown, so if you only fly your own aircraft 25 hours a year - it's never going to be cheap, but if you are a multi-millionaire it's probably still affordable.
I agree perhaps cheap isn't the best word to use in conjunction with flying helicopters, despite the best efforts of people like Mr Robinson.
I do know that it is possible to get R44 SFH as low as £250-300+VAT particularly if you buy blocks, or it's an Astro/Raven 1 about to run out of time but still has hours, but I haven't seen anything like that in the London area for a Raven 2, generally we are talking over £100 ph more.
Anyone that knows where I can ad-hoc rent a Raven 2 for that kind of money - I'd be interested :-)
CC
Last edited by chopperchappie; 24th Mar 2011 at 09:53.
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I'm aware of an Astro on offer for £375/hr all in (includes fuel and VAT) in the N London area, no block booking required. Alternately, I know of a Raven II a bit further out for around £325 all in per hour. There was a recent post here offering a Raven II for £375 all in near Birmingham (with substantial discounts for booking 10 hour chunks). The group Joel posted offer a 44 for £200/month and £170/hr wet (based in Manchester) - JT, are those prices inc- or ex-VAT? There are plenty of options out there.
Alternately, you can go pay £450/hr to the London schools. If money isn't an option, or you're too busy/lazy to hunt around, I guess that's an option.
Something that should be considered is that if you're flying (say) 1 hour per month, assuming the group under discussion is offering something similar price-wise to JT's group, you can probablty hire ad-hoc from a school for about the same money, without needing to make a 6-month commitment or fight for availibility (depending on the school); so everyone in the group really needs to be flying several hours per month. Given that most people only fly over weekends, with any group larger then 4-ish people, it seems like even with a super-duper-computer booking system, you're going to end up with massive congestion over the weekends, having to rush back from whatever you're doing to have the aircraft back for the next 2-hour slot (or whatever).
Alternately, you can go pay £450/hr to the London schools. If money isn't an option, or you're too busy/lazy to hunt around, I guess that's an option.
Something that should be considered is that if you're flying (say) 1 hour per month, assuming the group under discussion is offering something similar price-wise to JT's group, you can probablty hire ad-hoc from a school for about the same money, without needing to make a 6-month commitment or fight for availibility (depending on the school); so everyone in the group really needs to be flying several hours per month. Given that most people only fly over weekends, with any group larger then 4-ish people, it seems like even with a super-duper-computer booking system, you're going to end up with massive congestion over the weekends, having to rush back from whatever you're doing to have the aircraft back for the next 2-hour slot (or whatever).
And with fuel around the UK now as high as £1.72+VAT per litre (around £2 gross for private/pleasure flying) , I wouldn't trust any quoted "wet" rate.
In some places its gone up 40p/l since last Autumn - which in most R44s = £24 extra an hour.
In some places its gone up 40p/l since last Autumn - which in most R44s = £24 extra an hour.
Thread Starter
Other Options
Hi Pandalet
I am really keen to hear the details of the "Raven II a bit further out for around £325 all in per hour" can you PM me?
Almost forgot to say - Everyone is always concerned they wont get their fair share of bookings, but in a group people do have different work commitments and (like me) often work weekends.
Having said that, there are actually 16 hours between dusk and dawn on a summer day, which even if you say for every 2 hours flown takes 4 hours for pre-flight / post-flight is 8 useful flying hours per summer weekend day.
Let's say that two days a month are weathered off 6x 8h = 48h a month - so a group of say 10 people that only flew weekends would actually be flying about 5 hours a month. I wish I could afford to fly 5 hours every month and I wish I had the spare time to do it!
I know that isn't exactly how it works and people will want to take the helicopter away for the day and so on, but even if there's 10 people that fly 3-4 hours a month, that still means the aircraft is only used about 10% of the available flying hours.
Having been in and spoken to many sharing groups, consensus of opinion is that availability generally isn't the issue. Ironically though quite a few SFHs are suffering from less machines available and are struggling to make aircraft available as and when.
CC
I am really keen to hear the details of the "Raven II a bit further out for around £325 all in per hour" can you PM me?
Almost forgot to say - Everyone is always concerned they wont get their fair share of bookings, but in a group people do have different work commitments and (like me) often work weekends.
Having said that, there are actually 16 hours between dusk and dawn on a summer day, which even if you say for every 2 hours flown takes 4 hours for pre-flight / post-flight is 8 useful flying hours per summer weekend day.
Let's say that two days a month are weathered off 6x 8h = 48h a month - so a group of say 10 people that only flew weekends would actually be flying about 5 hours a month. I wish I could afford to fly 5 hours every month and I wish I had the spare time to do it!
I know that isn't exactly how it works and people will want to take the helicopter away for the day and so on, but even if there's 10 people that fly 3-4 hours a month, that still means the aircraft is only used about 10% of the available flying hours.
Having been in and spoken to many sharing groups, consensus of opinion is that availability generally isn't the issue. Ironically though quite a few SFHs are suffering from less machines available and are struggling to make aircraft available as and when.
CC
Last edited by chopperchappie; 28th Mar 2011 at 15:42.
Thread Starter
Hi JimBall
Yep - wet prices do depend on fuel costs.
But the idea is to be a bit sensible and adjust the per-hour-cost by the amount the fuel (or maintenance or whatever) changes.
So - comparing paying about half SFH costs and having to adjust that for fluctiations in actual operating costs, even if that's an extra £24, and just paying full SFH costs - erm...
Seems obvious to me!
At the end of the day fuel isn't going to go up forever with SFH rates going up as well is it? Whether you rent dry or wet you still have to pay the extra fuel costs if it goes up.
CC
Yep - wet prices do depend on fuel costs.
But the idea is to be a bit sensible and adjust the per-hour-cost by the amount the fuel (or maintenance or whatever) changes.
So - comparing paying about half SFH costs and having to adjust that for fluctiations in actual operating costs, even if that's an extra £24, and just paying full SFH costs - erm...
Seems obvious to me!
At the end of the day fuel isn't going to go up forever with SFH rates going up as well is it? Whether you rent dry or wet you still have to pay the extra fuel costs if it goes up.
CC
CC: I'm making the point that we're most definitely into a long period of rising costs - and not just fuel. We own and operate R44 Raven IIs and have done for years - so we know the true costs. And if your machine doesn't fly 300hrs annually, it will get very expensive.
With regard to weather - you should talk with the regular flyers at WAP and Denham. They certainly lose more than 2 days a month due to weather - and that's mainly with CPLs who have a lower vis limit than PPLs.
The lack of telemetry on the R44 will be the undoing of the whole thing. It is extremely hard to prove who did the engine or transmission overspeeds. You cannot rely upon insurance because one £20k+ payout for an engine will sock the premium. On a regular basis I have heard SFH "flyers" overspeed main rotors on final, start with the throttle open and take off without warming the engine correctly. (Fortunately, not on our machines.)
A main rotor overspeed can take 30-50 hrs to make itself known.
I would suggest that your owners in a share scheme should take a timed pic on their smartphone of the white-lined fan nut before and after flying - and email to whoever keeps the records. This would, at least, help monitor engine overspeeds on start-up.
Lord knows, the industry needs to get more PPLs flying. So any scheme that makes it affordable should be encouraged. But it must also stay viable.
With regard to weather - you should talk with the regular flyers at WAP and Denham. They certainly lose more than 2 days a month due to weather - and that's mainly with CPLs who have a lower vis limit than PPLs.
The lack of telemetry on the R44 will be the undoing of the whole thing. It is extremely hard to prove who did the engine or transmission overspeeds. You cannot rely upon insurance because one £20k+ payout for an engine will sock the premium. On a regular basis I have heard SFH "flyers" overspeed main rotors on final, start with the throttle open and take off without warming the engine correctly. (Fortunately, not on our machines.)
A main rotor overspeed can take 30-50 hrs to make itself known.
I would suggest that your owners in a share scheme should take a timed pic on their smartphone of the white-lined fan nut before and after flying - and email to whoever keeps the records. This would, at least, help monitor engine overspeeds on start-up.
Lord knows, the industry needs to get more PPLs flying. So any scheme that makes it affordable should be encouraged. But it must also stay viable.
Thread Starter
JimBall
Sorry I re-read my post and it wasn't clear - I meant 2 weekend days of the 8-10 that you get per summer month - not 2 days of the whole month.
I also saw a (real) statistic somewhere from met office that said something like for the south of England something like (can't remember exactly) 250-260 days a year on average meet "normal" VFR conditions. As we have already had January and February and half of March that were rubbish, I can only assume the rest of the year will be meeting VFR minima !!
Yes the intention is to ensure that the engine is not oversped by checking in and out at each flight.
Our cost estimates do assume a number of hours in line with your comments. That was something that popped out of the maths early!
Where are you based?
CC
Sorry I re-read my post and it wasn't clear - I meant 2 weekend days of the 8-10 that you get per summer month - not 2 days of the whole month.
I also saw a (real) statistic somewhere from met office that said something like for the south of England something like (can't remember exactly) 250-260 days a year on average meet "normal" VFR conditions. As we have already had January and February and half of March that were rubbish, I can only assume the rest of the year will be meeting VFR minima !!
Yes the intention is to ensure that the engine is not oversped by checking in and out at each flight.
Our cost estimates do assume a number of hours in line with your comments. That was something that popped out of the maths early!
Where are you based?
CC
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Yes the intention is to ensure that the engine is not oversped by checking in and out at each flight.