Turbomeca or P & W?
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Turbomeca or P & W?
Hi guys,
I don't want to start a slanging match............
But I could really use some infromation from all you pliots, engineers, operators and beancounters out there regarding pro's and con's for Turbomeca Vs P&W engines.
Specifically this will be for an EC135 T or P2+ (i) on PBH. So it would be Arrius 2B2 for Turbo and PW206B2 for Pratt.
Any info on operating, costs, support, fuel consumption etc, etc, would be most welcome, even anecdotal!
Many thanks,
BobbyBolkow
I don't want to start a slanging match............
But I could really use some infromation from all you pliots, engineers, operators and beancounters out there regarding pro's and con's for Turbomeca Vs P&W engines.
Specifically this will be for an EC135 T or P2+ (i) on PBH. So it would be Arrius 2B2 for Turbo and PW206B2 for Pratt.
Any info on operating, costs, support, fuel consumption etc, etc, would be most welcome, even anecdotal!
Many thanks,
BobbyBolkow
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: ...in view of the 'Southern Cross' ...
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Mmmm ....
.... To paraphrase the notation printed on the US banknotes ...
....... " in Pratts we trust "..... brilliant engines and I don't think you will find many that will badmouth them.
Turbomeca VERRRY expensive to overhaul ..... and I have heard (??) the Arrius can be problematic.
However I don't have any experience with the EC135 and all my Pratt time is Medium Bell (but thousands of hours) so I am a bit biased toward P&W .
.... To paraphrase the notation printed on the US banknotes ...
....... " in Pratts we trust "..... brilliant engines and I don't think you will find many that will badmouth them.
Turbomeca VERRRY expensive to overhaul ..... and I have heard (??) the Arrius can be problematic.
However I don't have any experience with the EC135 and all my Pratt time is Medium Bell (but thousands of hours) so I am a bit biased toward P&W
.
Eurocopter France, being French, like to source everything for their helicopters from France. Turbomeca are French, so guess who is supplying the engines for the EC175 - yes it's P & W of course!
Makila 2A is not a bad engine (unlike some of the smaller ones) but P & W's attitude to its customers is in a different league.
HC
Makila 2A is not a bad engine (unlike some of the smaller ones) but P & W's attitude to its customers is in a different league.
HC
Join Date: May 2006
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Turbomeca make great, reliable engines and so does PWC
The difference is in the customer service and spares support and PWC have it over Turbomeca.
The PBH deal might take a bit of research to figure out which one is a better deal but i guess thats pretty obvious.
It depends on where youre operating the A/c and where the nearest replacement engine/components are. Ive heard of PBH deals where theres not even a spare engine based in country!
Did not like the Arrius engine in the EC120 and i only hear good things about the PW206 either way the EC135 is a great ship
The difference is in the customer service and spares support and PWC have it over Turbomeca.
The PBH deal might take a bit of research to figure out which one is a better deal but i guess thats pretty obvious.
It depends on where youre operating the A/c and where the nearest replacement engine/components are. Ive heard of PBH deals where theres not even a spare engine based in country!
Did not like the Arrius engine in the EC120 and i only hear good things about the PW206 either way the EC135 is a great ship
Tightgit
I have a little bit of experience with the Arrius and a fair bit of experience of the P&W 206/207
Both engines are very good in the EC 135. It will probably boil down to the way you want to handle the PBH.
With P&W Eagle Service Plan, the engines (if possible) stay with the airframe this means that when Overhaul time arrives, your engines come out, rentals go in, your engine gets overhauled, when they’re ready, the rentals come out and your original overhauled items get put back in again. The downside of this is that it means two engine removals for the one overhaul event. However, you now start again with a full fresh TBO cycle on the clock.
With TM when the engines reach overhaul, they’ll replace them with another pair and away you go. So only one removal. The downside of this is that the engines you now have may have less than a full TBO cycle on them. What’s more, the cycles for each engine may be different.
There are obvious advantages to each method, you’ll have to decide which one suits you best based on your preference and of course the PBH price.
For what it’s worth, in the 10,000 hours accrued on one 902 and two EC 135s we only had an engine out once other than for overhaul, that was for a FOD event. The 206/207 is a very reliable chunk of engineering.
With the little experience I have of the TM I can say that you'll be satisfied with the engine and the UK TM team are very helpful
Both engines are very good in the EC 135. It will probably boil down to the way you want to handle the PBH.
With P&W Eagle Service Plan, the engines (if possible) stay with the airframe this means that when Overhaul time arrives, your engines come out, rentals go in, your engine gets overhauled, when they’re ready, the rentals come out and your original overhauled items get put back in again. The downside of this is that it means two engine removals for the one overhaul event. However, you now start again with a full fresh TBO cycle on the clock.
With TM when the engines reach overhaul, they’ll replace them with another pair and away you go. So only one removal. The downside of this is that the engines you now have may have less than a full TBO cycle on them. What’s more, the cycles for each engine may be different.
There are obvious advantages to each method, you’ll have to decide which one suits you best based on your preference and of course the PBH price.
For what it’s worth, in the 10,000 hours accrued on one 902 and two EC 135s we only had an engine out once other than for overhaul, that was for a FOD event. The 206/207 is a very reliable chunk of engineering.
With the little experience I have of the TM I can say that you'll be satisfied with the engine and the UK TM team are very helpful
Helicomparator said
I'd have to disagree....I have worked Arrius and Arriel in different variants and they have been extremely dependable.
Makila 2A is not a bad engine (unlike some of the smaller ones)
Join Date: Sep 2000
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Pratt & Whitney - Reliable Engines
So in the middle of Afrika we were wondering why our PT6-3b's weren't able to make topping..
Everything else was good....!....Just wouldn't make topping..
We checked everything...
Did a ground power assurance...
hefty positive margins,
But they would not make topping..
hmmmmmmm
My beloved 212 had spent the day long lining and trash hauling in the 45C heat of Afrika and much of it at RTOW..
We removed panels that were too hot to touch and waiting till the cool of the evening and then went to have a look in the fading heat of the day
Caught in the beam of the Maglite, as it flashed across the little plastic window that views to the inlet plenum and protective screen...we noticed a bit of grass poking out. After removing the inlet plenum ....and an exhaled 'Holeeeee Craaaap' we removed enough grass to feed a small horse
The tall stalks had been sucked in and completely wrapped around the cylindrical screening in front of the compressor...The ring of grass was at least 3" thick and completely obliterated the inlet
Both engines showed the same level of obstruction yet..neither engine even shrugged or burped
Not until the the topping check was there a hint of a problem
Needless to say...in Pratt & Whitney I trust
Everything else was good....!....Just wouldn't make topping..
We checked everything...
Did a ground power assurance...
hefty positive margins,
But they would not make topping..
hmmmmmmm
My beloved 212 had spent the day long lining and trash hauling in the 45C heat of Afrika and much of it at RTOW..
We removed panels that were too hot to touch and waiting till the cool of the evening and then went to have a look in the fading heat of the day
Caught in the beam of the Maglite, as it flashed across the little plastic window that views to the inlet plenum and protective screen...we noticed a bit of grass poking out. After removing the inlet plenum ....and an exhaled 'Holeeeee Craaaap' we removed enough grass to feed a small horse
The tall stalks had been sucked in and completely wrapped around the cylindrical screening in front of the compressor...The ring of grass was at least 3" thick and completely obliterated the inlet
Both engines showed the same level of obstruction yet..neither engine even shrugged or burped
Not until the the topping check was there a hint of a problem
Needless to say...in Pratt & Whitney I trust
Join Date: Sep 2000
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All I can add is that the Turbomeca start up is noticeably faster compared to the P&W.
I have also heard that when on an OPC and the P&W are idled during your autorotation once reselected to flight they take their sweet time to spool up again compared to the speedy Turbomeca.
P&W start cool compared to the Turbomeca but the TM's stay within limits and are not a worry.
The P&W do chuck a lot of soot out the back all over your lovely tail and more importantly the Fenestron which means regular cleaning.
Everything else seems has been said.
The ADAC in Germany only use P&W whereas the Bundespolizei use the Turbomeca.
I have also heard that when on an OPC and the P&W are idled during your autorotation once reselected to flight they take their sweet time to spool up again compared to the speedy Turbomeca.
P&W start cool compared to the Turbomeca but the TM's stay within limits and are not a worry.
The P&W do chuck a lot of soot out the back all over your lovely tail and more importantly the Fenestron which means regular cleaning.
Everything else seems has been said.
The ADAC in Germany only use P&W whereas the Bundespolizei use the Turbomeca.
