R22 accident in south of France
Fly 7
The article might be short and sharp but you dont get many goes in a helicopter espically Frank's products, so if it is sobering reading so be it. I am sure Martin would want it passed on so someone else doesnt f... up
The article might be short and sharp but you dont get many goes in a helicopter espically Frank's products, so if it is sobering reading so be it. I am sure Martin would want it passed on so someone else doesnt f... up
Well, I thought it was an excellent article. The only disappointing thing was the predictable conclusion. Yet again, ego and arrogance eclipses common sense; an attitude that seems to infect too many pilots, regardless of skill level and experience.
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Yes, at first read, an excellent and informative personal analysis by the author, with a very clear conclusion and direction of blame.
I knew Martin, and was disappointed that so much blame was attributed to him, but if he was categorically at fault then so be it, and we should all learn from it.
However, very little in the article is said about the helicopter - the R22 - and the author is Robinson Helicopter's Accident Technical Investigator. This means that he is no doubt highly qualified but not entirely independent. Only an observation.
I knew Martin, and was disappointed that so much blame was attributed to him, but if he was categorically at fault then so be it, and we should all learn from it.
However, very little in the article is said about the helicopter - the R22 - and the author is Robinson Helicopter's Accident Technical Investigator. This means that he is no doubt highly qualified but not entirely independent. Only an observation.
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I have not had the benefit of seeing Dick's article, although I have read the French report (with limited french comprehension). Certainly Dick is an R22 proponent: he also knows a lot about them.
I am ambivalent about the R22. It enabled me to afford to become a commercial pilot, and in that respect I am truly grateful. I have 2,000+ hrs on the type, gained around 20 years ago, mainly instructing. I actually owned 2. IMO, there are far too many loss of rotor control accidents in the type. IMO, some are down to the pilot. More worryingly, some seem to be random and not due to operation at/beyond the limit of the flight envelope. I really worry about those. I don't believe they are well understood. Personally, close to the end of my professional flying career I am not prepared to take the apparently random risk of flying the type. I still have a deep love for flying: it has enriched my life immeasurably. I would like to fly for pleasure, but I won't fly the R22.
Having said all that, you have to fly the helicopter you are given (or choose). A light, small 2 blade aircraft with a teetering head will not respond well in severe turbulence.The Mistral around the Alps Maritime is not a place to be in a light helicopter (pretty much any helicopter). An R22 is not the aircraft to take into or near mountains on a very windy day.
If I understand the French report:
the investigation was unable to establish what weather reports were used in the decision to fly. It would be interesting to know what information they acquired before setting off.
I believe the accident report took the view that the accident was caused my mis-manipulation of the controls. I don't know what others think, but I am not at all sure that the best ace R22 stick-poler in the world could have coped with those conditions.
In my view, the problem was setting off into that area with the prevailing conditions, and then not getting out of there, as soon as the turbulence began to be experienced.
None of which makes it any less sad.
I am ambivalent about the R22. It enabled me to afford to become a commercial pilot, and in that respect I am truly grateful. I have 2,000+ hrs on the type, gained around 20 years ago, mainly instructing. I actually owned 2. IMO, there are far too many loss of rotor control accidents in the type. IMO, some are down to the pilot. More worryingly, some seem to be random and not due to operation at/beyond the limit of the flight envelope. I really worry about those. I don't believe they are well understood. Personally, close to the end of my professional flying career I am not prepared to take the apparently random risk of flying the type. I still have a deep love for flying: it has enriched my life immeasurably. I would like to fly for pleasure, but I won't fly the R22.
Having said all that, you have to fly the helicopter you are given (or choose). A light, small 2 blade aircraft with a teetering head will not respond well in severe turbulence.The Mistral around the Alps Maritime is not a place to be in a light helicopter (pretty much any helicopter). An R22 is not the aircraft to take into or near mountains on a very windy day.
If I understand the French report:
the investigation was unable to establish what weather reports were used in the decision to fly. It would be interesting to know what information they acquired before setting off.
I believe the accident report took the view that the accident was caused my mis-manipulation of the controls. I don't know what others think, but I am not at all sure that the best ace R22 stick-poler in the world could have coped with those conditions.
In my view, the problem was setting off into that area with the prevailing conditions, and then not getting out of there, as soon as the turbulence began to be experienced.
None of which makes it any less sad.
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TC,
The french accident report link was posted earlier in this thread:
http://www.bea.aero/docspa/2010/g-vl...g-vl101209.pdf
It is too long to post. I got a Google translate, but it was unable to translate sensibly much of the technical information. I used schoolboy French to dig out some of the meaning. There was direct evidence from RT with ATC and a radar trace, but very little about flight planning. The examination of the wreckage was suitably chilling. One MR blade struck a skid!
The french accident report link was posted earlier in this thread:
http://www.bea.aero/docspa/2010/g-vl...g-vl101209.pdf
It is too long to post. I got a Google translate, but it was unable to translate sensibly much of the technical information. I used schoolboy French to dig out some of the meaning. There was direct evidence from RT with ATC and a radar trace, but very little about flight planning. The examination of the wreckage was suitably chilling. One MR blade struck a skid!
Last edited by Helinut; 9th Mar 2013 at 17:19.
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Having said all that, you have to fly the helicopter you are given (or choose). A light, small 2 blade aircraft with a teetering head will not respond well in severe turbulence.The Mistral around the Alps Maritime is not a place to be in a light helicopter (pretty much any helicopter). An R22 is not the aircraft to take into or near mountains on a very windy day.
If I understand the French report:
the investigation was unable to establish what weather reports were used in the decision to fly. It would be interesting to know what information they acquired before setting off.
I believe the accident report took the view that the accident was caused my mis-manipulation of the controls. I don't know what others think, but I am not at all sure that the best ace R22 stick-poler in the world could have coped with those conditions.
In my view, the problem was setting off into that area with the prevailing conditions, and then not getting out of there, as soon as the turbulence began to be experienced.
None of which makes it any less sad.
If I understand the French report:
the investigation was unable to establish what weather reports were used in the decision to fly. It would be interesting to know what information they acquired before setting off.
I believe the accident report took the view that the accident was caused my mis-manipulation of the controls. I don't know what others think, but I am not at all sure that the best ace R22 stick-poler in the world could have coped with those conditions.
In my view, the problem was setting off into that area with the prevailing conditions, and then not getting out of there, as soon as the turbulence began to be experienced.
None of which makes it any less sad.
If the aircraft is undergoing vertical acceleration due to air currents and then suddenly placed in a vertically descending air current, the die may well have been cast especially if the collective lever was just positioned at near zero lift.
Coupled to that if there was little forward air speed perhaps because of a natural and trained tendency to reduce forward airspeed in the turbulence, then of course it matters nought where the cyclic was positioned or as you say able to be positioned with any experience level.
Thank you Helinut, you have explained it well enough for me and as you say doesn't make it less sad.
Apart from anything else if suitable warnings about penetration into excessive turbulence are not in future heeded because of this then the helicopter world will be a poorer place for it.
If an aircraft was being blown upwards it would take a mighty strange reaction for any pilot to be leaving the collective up for the possible advent of the reciprocal air current, but had they the outcome may well have been far happier.
Let's not forget that at the interface between the vertically ascending and descending air currents there may well have been small pockets of rolling turbulence such that the leading edge of the disc was first being pushed downwards before the whole disc had penetrated the descending current. An ideal set up for mast bumping to occur.
Those sorts of wind eddies are often seen in the converging of conflicting air currents at ground level in the horizontal plane and witnessed by dust eddies or whirlwinds as we say, but of course the air flows within them air often much faster than the air-flows of the convergent currents.
Last edited by topendtorque; 9th Mar 2013 at 19:36.
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To all. This was one of the most difficult articles that I have written. It reflects my personal opinion as too what lead to the accident. It is my opinion that; no matter what helicopter type you were flying, it was not the conditions conducive to safe flight. The sole purpose of the article is to inform and hopefully prevent others from falling into this particular trap. For those that are mistakenly under the impression that I am somehow motivated to protect the Robinson product do not know me. My first and only conseren is that of " flight safety" if it was a Robinson product problem I would tell you, just as RHC would. Just because I am an RHC accident/ Technical Investigator does not in anyway deflect me from the primary task, that of the safety of all those that fly helicopters no matter what type. For those who wish to read the article can find it in my wedsite.
Fly safely, keep you RPM in the green. D
Fly safely, keep you RPM in the green. D
Dick, I see we are neighbours! If you ever get over the border you are very welcome to visit the BSP operation. I enjoyed browsing through your website, but am puzzled by the constant omission of 'fl' and 'fi' from the article titles - is it a software glitch?
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Hi 212man, which boarder? Brunei? Will have a look at the website in a sec and see what the problem is, thank's for pointing it out. Well, I know that I have one person looking at the website apart from me. Take care, keep the RPM in the green. D
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Great website, thanks Dick.
Please can you make sure that this website is promoted at Helicopter FI seminars.
This is great reading for students, PPL's (especially PPL's!) and instructors alike.
Keep up the good work.
Please can you make sure that this website is promoted at Helicopter FI seminars.
This is great reading for students, PPL's (especially PPL's!) and instructors alike.
Keep up the good work.
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Dear skillsndrills. Thank you for you comments, pleased you find the website useful. I do not think the CAA would like anything other than approved materials to be recommended for the FI seminars, I use to teach the helicopter subjects for two of the organisations conducting them and enjoyed the opertunity to make contact with the instructors. Keep the RPM in the green. D
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I read Dick's article in Rotor Torque and reflected on what a difficult article it must have been to write, particularly considering the closeness of the helicopter flying community. Far easier to 'go with the flow' than take on the task of reporting the facts as you see them - particularly when you consider where Dick was writing that article I.e. Rotor Torque, the magazine of the Helicopter Club where those killed were clearly very loved members. And I would just add that I've never had the pleasure of meeting Dick, but no doubt will when I manage to get myself on one of the Robbo safety courses that I believe he runs.
2S.
2S.
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Hi jackx123. Yes, my very good friend Cliff is; alive, well and kicking. He of course lives just across the water in KL and we live in Borneo KK. Cliff has made a real name for himself in Malaysia ( a good one that is) and has a lovely family (3 girls).
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Sorry for the delay in getting the HCGB article posted onto my website but for those who wish to read it can now do so athttp://www.morningtonsanfordaviation.com under articles. Keep your RPM in the green. D
Last edited by Dick Sanford; 13th Mar 2013 at 10:52.