H500 accident near Minsk 1 Fatal
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One guy, at a BBQ (and after seveal brews), jumped in his 500 and took off almost directly into a loop (a fully inverted loop) with the same result as Gunter here
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Just another thought:
not having a clue about aerobatics in a helicopter but could it be that the loop was too tight causing higher G-forces resulting in a brief "black out" of the pilot (74 years).
I was wondering why he kept that nose down attitude for such a long time and than did that harsh pull back on the cyclic (regaining consciousness?).
not having a clue about aerobatics in a helicopter but could it be that the loop was too tight causing higher G-forces resulting in a brief "black out" of the pilot (74 years).
I was wondering why he kept that nose down attitude for such a long time and than did that harsh pull back on the cyclic (regaining consciousness?).
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EoR
I tried to copy some frames from the video, but without sucess.
If you compare 1:24 and 1:25, the helicopter altered his flightpath about 90 deg. On top of the loop it seems to roll 90 deg to the left. What looks like a straight line in the loop is the helicopter falling in a knife edge attitude. When the nose points to the ground, the pilot tryed to pull out.
But with the poor quality of the video its difficult to be sure.
Joe
I tried to copy some frames from the video, but without sucess.
If you compare 1:24 and 1:25, the helicopter altered his flightpath about 90 deg. On top of the loop it seems to roll 90 deg to the left. What looks like a straight line in the loop is the helicopter falling in a knife edge attitude. When the nose points to the ground, the pilot tryed to pull out.
But with the poor quality of the video its difficult to be sure.
Joe
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RVDT
thanks for your input.
6) The loop is the worst maneuver to try since the critical place is when you
run out of airspeed at the top, where there is little you can do if you
misjudge except try to roll off the maneuver. If you start falling through,
the cyclic will be less effective, or maybe ineffective, and you'll become a
passenger. The next bad place is when you are staring at houses over the top
of your glare shield, and your airspeed is going rapidly beyond Vne.
This part is the most interesting for me.
Joe
thanks for your input.
6) The loop is the worst maneuver to try since the critical place is when you
run out of airspeed at the top, where there is little you can do if you
misjudge except try to roll off the maneuver. If you start falling through,
the cyclic will be less effective, or maybe ineffective, and you'll become a
passenger. The next bad place is when you are staring at houses over the top
of your glare shield, and your airspeed is going rapidly beyond Vne.
This part is the most interesting for me.
Joe
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for those commentinmg on the satisfaction of entering and exiting into wind, ponder this;
it's the crucial bit at the top where the aircraft is pointing at the downwind direction which is the problem. It may not be travelling very fast wrt TAS if the wind is anything significant. on the ground light wind can often be five six knots more at 300 to 400 feet.
That means 10 to 12 knots less TAS when going back the other way, or perhaps the difference between success and tragedy.
torque turn is a bit different;
one can perform a pleasing straight up and down line if it is entered to the downwind direction to recover into wind.
If it's the other way it's best to remember that you do not wish to be coming down into your own disturbed air which is travelling towards your expected flighpath at the wind speed. I.E. at the top pull a little more collective to travel backwards and a bit and make your descent shallower to keep ahead of that pesky, nasty, pucker making disturbed air.
it's the crucial bit at the top where the aircraft is pointing at the downwind direction which is the problem. It may not be travelling very fast wrt TAS if the wind is anything significant. on the ground light wind can often be five six knots more at 300 to 400 feet.
That means 10 to 12 knots less TAS when going back the other way, or perhaps the difference between success and tragedy.
torque turn is a bit different;
one can perform a pleasing straight up and down line if it is entered to the downwind direction to recover into wind.
If it's the other way it's best to remember that you do not wish to be coming down into your own disturbed air which is travelling towards your expected flighpath at the wind speed. I.E. at the top pull a little more collective to travel backwards and a bit and make your descent shallower to keep ahead of that pesky, nasty, pucker making disturbed air.
"One guy, at a BBQ (and after seveal brews), jumped in his 500 and took off almost directly into a loop (a fully inverted loop) with the same result as Gunter here "
If you are referring to Joe, unlike Gunter, I am sure a loop was never his intention. He lifted off from the back lawn of the house with all lights on, into complete darkness, and facing away from the lights of Taupo. Instead of going straight up (as he thought) then turning and heading for the airport, he just went over the roof of the house backwards and ended up almost inverted in a tennis court. Probably took 5 to 10 secs. Spacial disorientation??
If you are referring to Joe, unlike Gunter, I am sure a loop was never his intention. He lifted off from the back lawn of the house with all lights on, into complete darkness, and facing away from the lights of Taupo. Instead of going straight up (as he thought) then turning and heading for the airport, he just went over the roof of the house backwards and ended up almost inverted in a tennis court. Probably took 5 to 10 secs. Spacial disorientation??
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to satisfy my own curiousity, would there of been any collective input at the top of the loop that had an effect on his odd roll out attitude? Would dumping the collective at the top help maintain rotor speed? Maybe DennisK can answer this?
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I know a guy who proved a C207 could barrel roll. He got grounded for it for a couple of weeks to think about how much of a tit he was, so why is it accepted that it's OK to do it in a 500? We all know it can, probably can in a 22 if you really wanted to.
Dumb waste of a perfectly good helicopter
Dumb waste of a perfectly good helicopter
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Can I offer my pennorth on Gunter's manoeuvre and the control sequence used to produce a 'wing-over' or a loop. But first to answer the handling sequence question.
Apart from one occasion as below, I've only ever performed a full 360 degree vertical' loop at height .. say 1000 feet. I use the following sequence on the Enstrom 280c/FX.
A run in on the selected display axis using 30" MAP to achieve a 90 mph 'gate' speed. (Enstrom) Normal disc-flapback is allowed to bring the nose up for the first 30 degrees in the climb. Speed will be circa 75 mph - when aft cyclic is introduced while maintaining constant collective lever and yaw pedal position. At the 90 degree attitude aft cyclic pressure is tightened. I then look over my head for the horizon reference at which point collective lever is progressively lowered with further aft cyclic but - and it is a big but ... it is essential that a minimum airspeed above translation lift (say 40 mph) is showing on the ASI. Once the airframe has passed the top position, lever should have been been lowered fully to its minimum position (needles to remain joined) as the aircraft speed increases in the descent. Initially firm aft cyclic can be used but as speed once again approaches manoeuvre entry speed ... standard flap back brings the nose back up to the horizon which is assisted by appropriate aft cyclic.
I have flown these manoeuvres with a G meter fitted which has never recorded a zero G reading. Maximum positive G was recorded at 1.75. Also, and before embarking on the manoeuvre, I flew many sorties with an 8" balsa wood extension gaffer-taped to the dorsal fin and with 'tell-tale' markings on both the M/R dampers and blade up-stops.
Going back to the loop sequence, if 'gate' airspeed is lost as the airframe approaches the highest point in the manoeuvre, right yaw pedal can be used to convert to a 270 degree or 360 degree 'wing-over.
For actual displays commencing at around 20 feet, I use what I call a '270 degree' loop running in on the 'B' axis to the crowd and completing the manoeuvre flying parallel to the crowd line. In essence this is a wing over/torque turn. I did perform two full 360 degree 'wings level' loops using an Enstrom F28-2 at the 2004 North Weald Air Fair which was filmed and is now included in my scholarship DVD sequence.
Studying Gunter's unhappy manoeuvre, I feel that he did lose airspeed and translational lift at the top of the sequence and was probably pushing forward on the cyclic in the vertical nose-down position in the descent, but rapidly changing to hard aft cyclic when he realised the increase in speed was costing too much height. I watched him make that mistake at the 2005 Rouen WHC event but on that occasion he did succeed in pulling through safely although only missing the surface by a very few feet.
I suppose I should close by saying ... please don't try this flying without experienced guidance.
Take care all. Dennis Kenyon.
Apart from one occasion as below, I've only ever performed a full 360 degree vertical' loop at height .. say 1000 feet. I use the following sequence on the Enstrom 280c/FX.
A run in on the selected display axis using 30" MAP to achieve a 90 mph 'gate' speed. (Enstrom) Normal disc-flapback is allowed to bring the nose up for the first 30 degrees in the climb. Speed will be circa 75 mph - when aft cyclic is introduced while maintaining constant collective lever and yaw pedal position. At the 90 degree attitude aft cyclic pressure is tightened. I then look over my head for the horizon reference at which point collective lever is progressively lowered with further aft cyclic but - and it is a big but ... it is essential that a minimum airspeed above translation lift (say 40 mph) is showing on the ASI. Once the airframe has passed the top position, lever should have been been lowered fully to its minimum position (needles to remain joined) as the aircraft speed increases in the descent. Initially firm aft cyclic can be used but as speed once again approaches manoeuvre entry speed ... standard flap back brings the nose back up to the horizon which is assisted by appropriate aft cyclic.
I have flown these manoeuvres with a G meter fitted which has never recorded a zero G reading. Maximum positive G was recorded at 1.75. Also, and before embarking on the manoeuvre, I flew many sorties with an 8" balsa wood extension gaffer-taped to the dorsal fin and with 'tell-tale' markings on both the M/R dampers and blade up-stops.
Going back to the loop sequence, if 'gate' airspeed is lost as the airframe approaches the highest point in the manoeuvre, right yaw pedal can be used to convert to a 270 degree or 360 degree 'wing-over.
For actual displays commencing at around 20 feet, I use what I call a '270 degree' loop running in on the 'B' axis to the crowd and completing the manoeuvre flying parallel to the crowd line. In essence this is a wing over/torque turn. I did perform two full 360 degree 'wings level' loops using an Enstrom F28-2 at the 2004 North Weald Air Fair which was filmed and is now included in my scholarship DVD sequence.
Studying Gunter's unhappy manoeuvre, I feel that he did lose airspeed and translational lift at the top of the sequence and was probably pushing forward on the cyclic in the vertical nose-down position in the descent, but rapidly changing to hard aft cyclic when he realised the increase in speed was costing too much height. I watched him make that mistake at the 2005 Rouen WHC event but on that occasion he did succeed in pulling through safely although only missing the surface by a very few feet.
I suppose I should close by saying ... please don't try this flying without experienced guidance.
Take care all. Dennis Kenyon.
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dont you just love an informed answer from someone who has been there, done that, and got the t shirt.
that sequence was hard to watch. thanks for a brilliant explanation.
that sequence was hard to watch. thanks for a brilliant explanation.
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Or .. you can read the photographer's comments here: Air-Britain : g-bwav
And the value of that little "300 C" model is now about 5p?
One little old lady owner, never raced rallied or hang on a minute! WTF?