H500 accident near Minsk 1 Fatal
EoR:
Maybe the best thing said since the accident...maybe I will be more blunt:
Firstly, let me say RIP to the pilot...
When I saw the clip....first thing I thought was--"this show is a mess....the spins are not timed, they are not co-ordinated, it is just not rehearsed". I really thought it was a PPL just trying to show off well above his skill level. Then I heard the guy was in his 70's....I thought, maybe he should have retired years ago......
I have done some "displays", but never really thought of myself as a display pilot. Sometimes we are asked to display the capabilities of the helicopter, and not really given the training time to perfect it. There is an obvious difference between Chuck, (Red Bull USA display pilot), and the average pilot trying to show off a helicopter.
When I started flying tours in Hawaii, the words, (or words to this effect), of Patrick Corr finally made sense to me... "People are impressed by helicopters no matter what---you do not need to show off to prove it".
The most impressive thing I could do for people on helicopter rides was to hold a hover at 1,500 ft and execute a LEVEL pedal turn to give each person a good camera angle at what ever we were looking at, AND NOT make them sick during a one hour tour.
Tis all....
When I saw the beginning of the clip I have to admit that I thought some of the maneuvers were slightly uncoordinated but, when I realised the chap was 74 I thought 'Bravo, bloody good show!', however, we all need friends and perhaps Gunter needed someone to tell hem that what he was doing was terrific for his age but that he needed to modify his display to match his changing skill level.
Firstly, let me say RIP to the pilot...
When I saw the clip....first thing I thought was--"this show is a mess....the spins are not timed, they are not co-ordinated, it is just not rehearsed". I really thought it was a PPL just trying to show off well above his skill level. Then I heard the guy was in his 70's....I thought, maybe he should have retired years ago......
I have done some "displays", but never really thought of myself as a display pilot. Sometimes we are asked to display the capabilities of the helicopter, and not really given the training time to perfect it. There is an obvious difference between Chuck, (Red Bull USA display pilot), and the average pilot trying to show off a helicopter.
When I started flying tours in Hawaii, the words, (or words to this effect), of Patrick Corr finally made sense to me... "People are impressed by helicopters no matter what---you do not need to show off to prove it".
The most impressive thing I could do for people on helicopter rides was to hold a hover at 1,500 ft and execute a LEVEL pedal turn to give each person a good camera angle at what ever we were looking at, AND NOT make them sick during a one hour tour.
Tis all....
Just a thought does anyone know was he trying to do a loop? ( not great for the strap pack on a 500) or was he going for a torque turn and pulled back on the cylic too much going into an inadvertent loop ? Height would be ok for a torque turn but way too close for recovery from a loop not that I have ever done a loop in any 500 nor intend to.
As said by the grace of God
As said by the grace of God
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500 - I don't think he was attempting a wingover (torque turn) as there was positive rear cyclic input at the crest of his vertical climb.
A number of civil helicopters can go inverted including, but not limited to, the Enstrom and Squirrel see: http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/418...-training.html
Back in the 70s-80s there were a bunch of farming pilots .. Kiwi madmen (and I literally mean madmen!) who became deer hunting pilots. Most respectable Kiwi's aren't too keen to tell the truth about what happened in those days but, I think its fair to say (and especially with the H500) that if you can imagine it ... they did it .. including flying through barns (at full speed) under waterfalls, through confined stone outcrops, towing water skiiers .. everything!
One guy, at a BBQ (and after seveal brews), jumped in his 500 and took off almost directly into a loop (a fully inverted loop) with the same result as Gunter here! If you ever meet one of the ex-deer-hunter Kiwi madmen pilots ... they can provide you with an evening's entertainment around the bar while recounting all the mayhem in NZ during that time. They also make pretty convincing deer imitation sounds!
Some display helicopters have modified tail booms and I know of at least one 500 in the US which ran the display circuit and had the straps replaced every 100 hrs or so! The 105 gets away with it because the head is titanium and, for the most part, is able to manage the stress but the pilot does also have that great 'Sherman' device ... 'de mast moment indicator!'
In 1985 I barrel-rolled a Hughes 500D on behalf if its owner who filmed it from a B206 and then showed the vid to his buddies telling them that he was the one flying! I should try post it on You Tube (if I can convert it from VHS!). It was a great experience and immediately I had done it ... I wanted to do it again but ... ended up buying a Christen Eagle II instead!
HM
A number of civil helicopters can go inverted including, but not limited to, the Enstrom and Squirrel see: http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/418...-training.html
Back in the 70s-80s there were a bunch of farming pilots .. Kiwi madmen (and I literally mean madmen!) who became deer hunting pilots. Most respectable Kiwi's aren't too keen to tell the truth about what happened in those days but, I think its fair to say (and especially with the H500) that if you can imagine it ... they did it .. including flying through barns (at full speed) under waterfalls, through confined stone outcrops, towing water skiiers .. everything!
One guy, at a BBQ (and after seveal brews), jumped in his 500 and took off almost directly into a loop (a fully inverted loop) with the same result as Gunter here! If you ever meet one of the ex-deer-hunter Kiwi madmen pilots ... they can provide you with an evening's entertainment around the bar while recounting all the mayhem in NZ during that time. They also make pretty convincing deer imitation sounds!
Some display helicopters have modified tail booms and I know of at least one 500 in the US which ran the display circuit and had the straps replaced every 100 hrs or so! The 105 gets away with it because the head is titanium and, for the most part, is able to manage the stress but the pilot does also have that great 'Sherman' device ... 'de mast moment indicator!'
In 1985 I barrel-rolled a Hughes 500D on behalf if its owner who filmed it from a B206 and then showed the vid to his buddies telling them that he was the one flying! I should try post it on You Tube (if I can convert it from VHS!). It was a great experience and immediately I had done it ... I wanted to do it again but ... ended up buying a Christen Eagle II instead!
HM
Last edited by Hell Man; 10th Aug 2010 at 09:44. Reason: photo added
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Hmm
Firstly RIP to Pilot and condolonces to his family
Ultimately he looked to have done whatever manouvre he intended too close to the ground, a sad feature in many a display accident!!
Ultimately he looked to have done whatever manouvre he intended too close to the ground, a sad feature in many a display accident!!
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Display manoeuvres
E of R ... Thanks for the encouraging notes and I suppose I will see my 2010 display programme through, but I was rather hoping we might get some feedback from the guys regarding the sense of what we do. On the one hand we are putting on a show for the paying punters, (and we get paid quite well!) but on the other hand are we showing a 'cavalier' side to the discipline of flying? It isn't until there is an accident, that one starts to reconsider.
Gate heights are always a problem but I stick to mine with hoops of steel. Ditto gate speeds. I display the smaller machines, MD500, Sikorsky 300, Enstrom 280 and 480 and I have displayed the Scout. The difficulty is that for an effective display, the small machines need to be closer to the crowd. The service Lynx display pilots put on a technically superior display to any of mine, but mostly in excess of 1000 feet where apart from the general noise and blade slap they don 't seem to resonate quite as well with the crowd. Perhaps a case of a good little 'un beating a big 'un.
Oh and just a small note for the ageist gents. I make 78 in eight weeks! And unless I change plans I'll be flying at the World Freestyle Championship again in Russia next year. Give we VOAP's a chance!
Go on lads ... beat me up a bit please. Dennis K.
Gate heights are always a problem but I stick to mine with hoops of steel. Ditto gate speeds. I display the smaller machines, MD500, Sikorsky 300, Enstrom 280 and 480 and I have displayed the Scout. The difficulty is that for an effective display, the small machines need to be closer to the crowd. The service Lynx display pilots put on a technically superior display to any of mine, but mostly in excess of 1000 feet where apart from the general noise and blade slap they don 't seem to resonate quite as well with the crowd. Perhaps a case of a good little 'un beating a big 'un.
Oh and just a small note for the ageist gents. I make 78 in eight weeks! And unless I change plans I'll be flying at the World Freestyle Championship again in Russia next year. Give we VOAP's a chance!
Go on lads ... beat me up a bit please. Dennis K.
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I dare....
Never met you in person Dennis but sure enough I'm impressed by what I've seen from you in the 300.
However I would like to quote "Earl of Rochester":
Never met you in person Dennis but sure enough I'm impressed by what I've seen from you in the 300.
However I would like to quote "Earl of Rochester":
Gunter needed someone to tell hem that what he was doing was terrific for his age but that he needed to modify his display to match his changing skill level.
Professional performers often review their work on video and engage in critical analysis with those similarly experience in their respective fields - maybe all Gunter needed was a friend to talk him through developing something a little milder?
Professional performers often review their work on video and engage in critical analysis with those similarly experience in their respective fields - maybe all Gunter needed was a friend to talk him through developing something a little milder?
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That instant
There's a disturbing instant in the video just past the top of the loop (maybe more in the verticle plain) where it seems as though the aircraft pauses in the recovery and instead of continuing the radius, flattens out the trajectory of the curve. It almost looks as though it could be a wind issue. That instant appears to be followed by an unsuccessful attempt to catch up with aft cyclic and all the collective he had, I imagine. The hard landing almost looks survivable were it not for the fire. In fact, I'm not sure if I am seeing correctly, but it looks like the pilot may have exited the helicopter on fire. Very iffy about that though.
Last edited by fly911; 11th Aug 2010 at 18:21.
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911 - You can't be serious dude! If your lap or PC doesn't have software to slomo these clips then get it! There's not a hope of surviving an impact like that - my guess is that the cyclic would have been thrust through his torso followed pretty quickly by a slam from the floor of the ship. That was a high velocity impact (in anyone's language).
The 'pause in recovery' just isn't there - watch exactly the same stunt from twice the height and the 'pause' is gone but when you're too low it looks like a pause because of his relativity to the ground.
The 'unsuccessful attempt to catch up with aft cyclic' is actually the moment the dude gets his first look at what's ahead of him and realizes he's gotta do something fast - he tries to level the bird (when you see the tail dip down) but there's too much vertical velocity for the levelling action to make any difference.
I've seen crashes you can walk away from, sadly, this ain't one of them.
The 'pause in recovery' just isn't there - watch exactly the same stunt from twice the height and the 'pause' is gone but when you're too low it looks like a pause because of his relativity to the ground.
The 'unsuccessful attempt to catch up with aft cyclic' is actually the moment the dude gets his first look at what's ahead of him and realizes he's gotta do something fast - he tries to level the bird (when you see the tail dip down) but there's too much vertical velocity for the levelling action to make any difference.
I've seen crashes you can walk away from, sadly, this ain't one of them.
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Hell Man
So what are you saying? I'm smoking too much wacky weed, or what? I see what I see. I'm not an accident investigator, but it looked like it bounced. No slo-mo, but I watched it a few times. I said that it "almost" looked survivable. Don't forget that this is the same highly survivable roll cage as the famed LOH that many Viet Nam war pilots owe their lives to.
Last edited by fly911; 11th Aug 2010 at 18:38.
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Hi all,
I watched the video several times. At the top of the loop, 1:24, the nose of the helicopter points toward the starting point of the manouver. Whithin 1 sec, as the nose drops, the helicopter rolls 90 deg to the left. Recovery is perpendicular to the line he started. Can someone tell me (fixed wing pilot) what could be the reason for this roll.
Thanks Joe
I watched the video several times. At the top of the loop, 1:24, the nose of the helicopter points toward the starting point of the manouver. Whithin 1 sec, as the nose drops, the helicopter rolls 90 deg to the left. Recovery is perpendicular to the line he started. Can someone tell me (fixed wing pilot) what could be the reason for this roll.
Thanks Joe
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Gate heights are always a problem but I stick to mine with hoops of steel. Ditto gate speeds. I display the smaller machines, MD500, Sikorsky 300, Enstrom 280 and 480 and I have displayed the Scout. The difficulty is that for an effective display, the small machines need to be closer to the crowd.
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- Morane
I would really like to try and help you so, to be sure .. could you use the video clip from post #28 by fly911 and tell me after exactly how many seconds into the clip is the roll that you are enquiring about.
FYI: Many (but not all) helicopter 'loops' do not fly straight over the top but go slightly to one side in order to place less stress on the rotor system.
Earl
I would really like to try and help you so, to be sure .. could you use the video clip from post #28 by fly911 and tell me after exactly how many seconds into the clip is the roll that you are enquiring about.
FYI: Many (but not all) helicopter 'loops' do not fly straight over the top but go slightly to one side in order to place less stress on the rotor system.
Earl
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EoR thank you for your reply,
in the video from post#28 the roll started at the beginning of 1:24 and is completed whithin the same second.
It started at the top of the loop. At the same time the nose drops.
Joe
in the video from post#28 the roll started at the beginning of 1:24 and is completed whithin the same second.
It started at the top of the loop. At the same time the nose drops.
Joe
Dennis
OK---I'll put in my $0.02...... With all due respect.
The various regulations pretty much world wide put age limits on professional pilots flying certain operations. Even to drive, I believe in the UK you have to resit your driving test after a certain age, (I may be wrong on this though). All medical research shows that reflexes, and other skills will deteriorate with age.
Why not go out on a high note. Do what you do best and mentor a younger guy to take over the airshow side of things. You could be involved and still maintain the respect you deserve.
I don't think anyone would think any less of you----I for one would probably have a greater respect.
Oh and just a small note for the ageist gents. I make 78 in eight weeks! And unless I change plans I'll be flying at the World Freestyle Championship again in Russia next year. Give we VOAP's a chance!
Go on lads ... beat me up a bit please. Dennis K.
Go on lads ... beat me up a bit please. Dennis K.
The various regulations pretty much world wide put age limits on professional pilots flying certain operations. Even to drive, I believe in the UK you have to resit your driving test after a certain age, (I may be wrong on this though). All medical research shows that reflexes, and other skills will deteriorate with age.
Why not go out on a high note. Do what you do best and mentor a younger guy to take over the airshow side of things. You could be involved and still maintain the respect you deserve.
I don't think anyone would think any less of you----I for one would probably have a greater respect.
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I thought the same as Gordy. The first few moments were rather untidy and I was expecting to see it plunge into the crowd. Until I realised it was not a new pilot but an air display and therefore the routine would have been passed as safe and competent by a display ticketed pilot.
And my son starts his pplh tomorrow.
As for me, adrenaline is not the reason to fly.
So Whizzard, teach my boy to fly beautifully not excitingly.
And lets not die doing what we love best. Lets die old men in warm beds.
And my son starts his pplh tomorrow.
As for me, adrenaline is not the reason to fly.
So Whizzard, teach my boy to fly beautifully not excitingly.
And lets not die doing what we love best. Lets die old men in warm beds.
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MD 500 & display flying
Thanks for the feedback (Birrdy & Gordy) Genuinely appreciated.
I've just had a rather longer e-mail exchange with another highly experienced rotary man and long time friend, and overall, he feels the same and I'm listening hard.
First on to the display instructing possibility ... I'm frequently asked to do that. But I have to refuse since I could never face the NoK following a fatal, mainly caused by my opening up that particular avenue of flying. We all know what we do is dangerous enough and I don't feel I should add to that risk by encouraging any pilot to explore further the machine's limits.
But I have to come back to a few things. We all fly for either pleasure or money and display flying offers more of both. On that tack, driving at 80mph on a motorway is adding to the risk, but we motorist enjoy it and most of us continue to do so. I've looked very long and very hard at stopping and when a few friends tell you 'perhaps you should' I genuinly take their words on board ... but fellow pilots - I can't easily stop. It is something I have been doing since 1973 on rotary alone, and twenty years on fixed wing before that. You could have asked Bob Hoover about that one.
I seriously feel my age doesn't have a lot to do with any decision. I still comfortably work a 12 to 14 hour day refurbishing my house and completed what was my best ever display (technically and visually) fairly recently, but on the other tack, my Salt Lake City mistake brought me up with a jolt. I've told myself I won't make that mistake again, but no doubt Gunter said the same. I met him on several occasions over the years and we invariably discussed my display manoeuvres and as some of you will know, he began using a similar sequence in recent years.
Now I think I'm rambling, but writing as each thought comes into my head. Thanks for all those who tell me to keep displaying until I know I must stop and ditto to those who offer well thought out advice in the other direction.
I'd dearly like to know how our USA pilots feel especially the Red Ball gents.
Can I close by telling you a couple of true stories. Just a year or so ago, I was chatting at a Filton post display to an ex 'Blue Eagles' team leader. He told me that at age 12, and having seen my 1983 display at Biggin Hill, he promised himself he would do the same as soon as he was old enough. Made me happy to hear that said. Another guy was driving past Shoreham Airfield when I was practicing. He turned into the airfield so he could chat to the pilot. Within a year he had learned to fly and bought his own Enstrom.
Thanks lads for your comments. Take care all. Dennis Kenyon.
PS. My view of the MD500's continued 'nose down' in the descent was to regain translation lift as rapidly as possible but as noted here many times, there was insufficient time to regain full disc response before hitting the ground. RIP Gunter.
I've just had a rather longer e-mail exchange with another highly experienced rotary man and long time friend, and overall, he feels the same and I'm listening hard.
First on to the display instructing possibility ... I'm frequently asked to do that. But I have to refuse since I could never face the NoK following a fatal, mainly caused by my opening up that particular avenue of flying. We all know what we do is dangerous enough and I don't feel I should add to that risk by encouraging any pilot to explore further the machine's limits.
But I have to come back to a few things. We all fly for either pleasure or money and display flying offers more of both. On that tack, driving at 80mph on a motorway is adding to the risk, but we motorist enjoy it and most of us continue to do so. I've looked very long and very hard at stopping and when a few friends tell you 'perhaps you should' I genuinly take their words on board ... but fellow pilots - I can't easily stop. It is something I have been doing since 1973 on rotary alone, and twenty years on fixed wing before that. You could have asked Bob Hoover about that one.
I seriously feel my age doesn't have a lot to do with any decision. I still comfortably work a 12 to 14 hour day refurbishing my house and completed what was my best ever display (technically and visually) fairly recently, but on the other tack, my Salt Lake City mistake brought me up with a jolt. I've told myself I won't make that mistake again, but no doubt Gunter said the same. I met him on several occasions over the years and we invariably discussed my display manoeuvres and as some of you will know, he began using a similar sequence in recent years.
Now I think I'm rambling, but writing as each thought comes into my head. Thanks for all those who tell me to keep displaying until I know I must stop and ditto to those who offer well thought out advice in the other direction.
I'd dearly like to know how our USA pilots feel especially the Red Ball gents.
Can I close by telling you a couple of true stories. Just a year or so ago, I was chatting at a Filton post display to an ex 'Blue Eagles' team leader. He told me that at age 12, and having seen my 1983 display at Biggin Hill, he promised himself he would do the same as soon as he was old enough. Made me happy to hear that said. Another guy was driving past Shoreham Airfield when I was practicing. He turned into the airfield so he could chat to the pilot. Within a year he had learned to fly and bought his own Enstrom.
Thanks lads for your comments. Take care all. Dennis Kenyon.
PS. My view of the MD500's continued 'nose down' in the descent was to regain translation lift as rapidly as possible but as noted here many times, there was insufficient time to regain full disc response before hitting the ground. RIP Gunter.
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Sad tragedy indeed!
I guess I'll throw my hat in there with the others who confess to enjoying seeing a machine and pilot expressing themselves to the limits of their capabilities. There really is something magnificent about it. With it all though, having seen my share of accidents and having lost friends to accidents I'll confess to a certain uneasiness watching same.
I do find a certain strange wonderment though at the types who recoil in horror at the thought of those who demo aircraft well past the point of performance they would be comfortable with.
A few years ago I made the acquaintance of a gent who was a production test pilot for Hughes back in the Vietnam era. Ah, the stories he would tell...500's regularly looped and rolled, 300's looped and rolled. One in particular stood out: A delivery of 500/OH-6's to a SE Asian country and checkout of local pilots. At the ceremony the flight of new 500's followed the fast movers down the flight line. Trailing the formation came one 500 barrel rolling down the whole flight line. The Hughes exec present for the ceremony looks over at said production test pilot with a dirty look and asks "I wonder where he learned that maneuver?"
As a fellow I know told me when I bought my Brantly recently. "You know, I'm pretty sure that little machine would do a barrel roll no problem." If only I had the guts and training...
That being said, do take care Dennis
I guess I'll throw my hat in there with the others who confess to enjoying seeing a machine and pilot expressing themselves to the limits of their capabilities. There really is something magnificent about it. With it all though, having seen my share of accidents and having lost friends to accidents I'll confess to a certain uneasiness watching same.
I do find a certain strange wonderment though at the types who recoil in horror at the thought of those who demo aircraft well past the point of performance they would be comfortable with.
A few years ago I made the acquaintance of a gent who was a production test pilot for Hughes back in the Vietnam era. Ah, the stories he would tell...500's regularly looped and rolled, 300's looped and rolled. One in particular stood out: A delivery of 500/OH-6's to a SE Asian country and checkout of local pilots. At the ceremony the flight of new 500's followed the fast movers down the flight line. Trailing the formation came one 500 barrel rolling down the whole flight line. The Hughes exec present for the ceremony looks over at said production test pilot with a dirty look and asks "I wonder where he learned that maneuver?"
As a fellow I know told me when I bought my Brantly recently. "You know, I'm pretty sure that little machine would do a barrel roll no problem." If only I had the guts and training...
That being said, do take care Dennis
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- Morane
After observing the maneuver at 1:24 I believe, as hinted earlier, that this is an action to soften out the 'loop' at its very apex (top) in order to reduce the forces on the rotor - an attempt between a torque-turn and a loop. It is either this or just poor control at the loop's apex.
As you've probably seen, one of the world's most capable helicopter aerobatic display pilots (Dennis K) is on this thread - he may have a more insightful view as to why the line of the helicopter is not straight over the top but, above is my considered opinion.
I think it was Hell Man who mentioned the Bo105's titanium rotor head and which is one of the reason's why the well know Chuck Aaron (Red Bull display pilot in the US) is able to pull 'stright back' loops - well actually they are more like back flips!
Earl
Red Bull display pilot Chuck Aaron (50 yrs)
Straight back loop (notice the altitude)
But of course ... there must always be limits!
Link to Red Bull's official page on Chuck Aaron: Chuck Aaron :: Aerial Sports Pilots :: Red Bull
After observing the maneuver at 1:24 I believe, as hinted earlier, that this is an action to soften out the 'loop' at its very apex (top) in order to reduce the forces on the rotor - an attempt between a torque-turn and a loop. It is either this or just poor control at the loop's apex.
As you've probably seen, one of the world's most capable helicopter aerobatic display pilots (Dennis K) is on this thread - he may have a more insightful view as to why the line of the helicopter is not straight over the top but, above is my considered opinion.
I think it was Hell Man who mentioned the Bo105's titanium rotor head and which is one of the reason's why the well know Chuck Aaron (Red Bull display pilot in the US) is able to pull 'stright back' loops - well actually they are more like back flips!
Earl
Red Bull display pilot Chuck Aaron (50 yrs)
Straight back loop (notice the altitude)
If there are limits to everything, no one told Chuck Aaron. Chuck is the first and only civilian pilot to be licensed by the Federal Aviation Administration to perform aerobatics in a helicopter, which he does 25 times a year across the U.S. in a tricked up BO-105, courtesy of Red Bull.
Link to Red Bull's official page on Chuck Aaron: Chuck Aaron :: Aerial Sports Pilots :: Red Bull