Question about minimum equipment (UK)
Guest
Posts: n/a
Question about minimum equipment (UK)
Schweizer 300 CBi...
G-reg...
JAA PPL pilot with 1 pax...
VFR flight...
Fuel guage is inop...
Is it legal to fly it? ANO says nothing, POH says nothing, EU-OPS I cant find online
Does anyone know the answer?
G-reg...
JAA PPL pilot with 1 pax...
VFR flight...
Fuel guage is inop...
Is it legal to fly it? ANO says nothing, POH says nothing, EU-OPS I cant find online
Does anyone know the answer?
Good answer MT 
Dont know if I trust any fuel gauge but it does give a trend as to what is happening, I have seen them show full for 1.5 hrs then drop to half over a few minutes, ones that don't move from full ones that don't move from empty.
If it goes down in a way that corresponds to your average fuel burn there is a X reference your calculations were correct, if it appears to be racing ahead of your average burn perhaps you are loosing fuel and the donk could stop before you are expecting.
Personally I want the thing working.
An interesting read
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/factor200802.pdf
Dont know if I trust any fuel gauge but it does give a trend as to what is happening, I have seen them show full for 1.5 hrs then drop to half over a few minutes, ones that don't move from full ones that don't move from empty.
If it goes down in a way that corresponds to your average fuel burn there is a X reference your calculations were correct, if it appears to be racing ahead of your average burn perhaps you are loosing fuel and the donk could stop before you are expecting.
Personally I want the thing working.
An interesting read
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/factor200802.pdf
Last edited by 500e; 25th Jun 2010 at 07:35.
Hovering AND talking
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Propping up bars in the Lands of D H Lawrence and Bishop Bonner
Age: 59
Posts: 5,705
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Personally I want the thing working
If there is no cross-reference, then one shouldn't be happy to accept the aircraft.
If there is nothing in the ANO nor the POH, then a private, non-AOC, no-fuel-gauge flight may well be legal .... but unless you have the aircraft fuelled to the gunwales and are planning half an hour of circuits, would you be wise?
Cheers
Whirls
Typically for those types that do have an MMEL, the restriction would be written something like - "...providing the flight is initiated with full tanks and the flight time is not more than half the total endurance." It would normally have a Recitification Interval of 3 days (B.)
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Aberdeen
Age: 54
Posts: 240
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Is it legal to fly it?, probably.
Would you want to fly it?, well as long as you dipped the tank(s) beforehand and used prudent and conservative planning then possibly.
But to be honest, in the grand scheme of things it might be the first hole in the swiss cheese (that you know about) ...
Would you want to fly it?, well as long as you dipped the tank(s) beforehand and used prudent and conservative planning then possibly.
But to be honest, in the grand scheme of things it might be the first hole in the swiss cheese (that you know about) ...
Wow. Lots of non-answers here. Or un-answers to a very specific question: Is an inop fuel gauge legal? Whatever. I don't know about the UK, but here in the US, FAR part 91.205(9) specifies that a "fuel gauge indicating the quantity of fuel in each tank" is required (among other things).
I can't believe the UK regs are any less strict in this regard. Is it possible?
I can't believe the UK regs are any less strict in this regard. Is it possible?
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: uk
Posts: 243
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ask yourself the question " would I drive my car to scotland with out knowing how much fuel is in the tank" um No. So you probably don't want to fly in a helicopter with out knowing how much juice you have. Unless 1 you filled it right up and are happy your fuel burn calcs are right or 2 you practice some autos before you go to far.
"A fuel quantity indicator, for each fuel tank.." is part of the cert' basis for the aircraft; it is therefore required for every flight. It would be extremely unusual for a helicopter to be 'released for service' without a functioning indicator.
An MEL is an approved document that provides alleviation from the carriage of equipment under controlled and acceptable circumstances. This acceptability is based upon an evaluation of a number of defined factors showing that the level of safety dictated by the minimum standards specified for the design and operation of the aircraft type, would be maintained. The MEL is an alleviating document - without it, there are no permitted alleviations.
It would be unusual for you to find any reference to the fuel gauge in the equipment section of the ANO because, as stated above, it is part of the cert' basis of the aircraft and therefore covered by 'release to service' procedures.
As indicated by FH100 Pilot, for operations under FARs, the requirement is specific in FAR 91.209(b)(9). It is also stated in FAR 91.213(d)(2) - (INOPERATIVE INSTRUMENTS AND EQUIPMENT), that "The inoperative instruments and equipment are not (i) Part of the VFR-day type certification instruments and equipment prescribed in the applicable airworthiness regulations under which the aircraft was type certificated" - i.e. FAR 27, as quoted above.
Jim
An MEL is an approved document that provides alleviation from the carriage of equipment under controlled and acceptable circumstances. This acceptability is based upon an evaluation of a number of defined factors showing that the level of safety dictated by the minimum standards specified for the design and operation of the aircraft type, would be maintained. The MEL is an alleviating document - without it, there are no permitted alleviations.
It would be unusual for you to find any reference to the fuel gauge in the equipment section of the ANO because, as stated above, it is part of the cert' basis of the aircraft and therefore covered by 'release to service' procedures.
As indicated by FH100 Pilot, for operations under FARs, the requirement is specific in FAR 91.209(b)(9). It is also stated in FAR 91.213(d)(2) - (INOPERATIVE INSTRUMENTS AND EQUIPMENT), that "The inoperative instruments and equipment are not (i) Part of the VFR-day type certification instruments and equipment prescribed in the applicable airworthiness regulations under which the aircraft was type certificated" - i.e. FAR 27, as quoted above.
Jim
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: No longer a cockpit near you
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As 212 man said - most MEL's have a dispensation written for a u/s fuel gauge and, from memory, in my aircraft it said you had to start with full tanks and it had to be fixed within one day. Basically a get you home option as flying with full tanks didn't give the customer much payload.
So in commercial JAA/EASA land it is legal to fly but with severe restrictions.
JS
So in commercial JAA/EASA land it is legal to fly but with severe restrictions.
JS
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
FFS, why don't people here listen/read the answers to their question!
Are you after the one person that will say Yes? Even at best you have been told it would be unwise.
Tell you what controller, go flying and if your calcs go wrong and you end up having to rush a landing before planning on doing so, just say in the report that the gauge failed in flight with the flame out happening while you were looking for somewhere to land as soon as practicable in order to check the tank contents. ( Assuming of course that no one is likely to investigate the circumstances that a. Reads PPRuNe or/and b. Knows who you are.)
Looking at your initial post, I wonder how long this guage has been u/s and how many flights it has had with it u/s.
The best indicator of whether or not you should take it up, would be to ask the passenger ( non fare paying
) if they would be happy to fly with you without a working fuel guage! CRM and all that ;-)
I like B.U.D.G.I.E.s analogy, you probably would make the car trip to Scotland, but it would be the most uncomfortable and stressful trip you could possibly undertake.
Are you after the one person that will say Yes? Even at best you have been told it would be unwise.
Tell you what controller, go flying and if your calcs go wrong and you end up having to rush a landing before planning on doing so, just say in the report that the gauge failed in flight with the flame out happening while you were looking for somewhere to land as soon as practicable in order to check the tank contents. ( Assuming of course that no one is likely to investigate the circumstances that a. Reads PPRuNe or/and b. Knows who you are.)
Looking at your initial post, I wonder how long this guage has been u/s and how many flights it has had with it u/s.
The best indicator of whether or not you should take it up, would be to ask the passenger ( non fare paying
) if they would be happy to fly with you without a working fuel guage! CRM and all that ;-)I like B.U.D.G.I.E.s analogy, you probably would make the car trip to Scotland, but it would be the most uncomfortable and stressful trip you could possibly undertake.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Oh, for god's sake, all I want to know is WHERE IS THE LEGAL REFERENCE? I know it's not wise to fly without a fuel guage, I know the FAR ruling in 91.205, I know about time/fuel calcs, I know about MELs and the requirement for AOC aircraft.
I don't want advice about fuel planning or a lecture about how irresonsible it is etc. I did not ask "is it wise to fly without a fuel gauge?"
I JUST WANT TO KNOW WHERE THE LEGAL JAA REFERENCE IS i.e. WHAT DOCUMENT AND WHERE CAN I FIND IT!
Is that such a complicated question?
I don't want advice about fuel planning or a lecture about how irresonsible it is etc. I did not ask "is it wise to fly without a fuel gauge?"
I JUST WANT TO KNOW WHERE THE LEGAL JAA REFERENCE IS i.e. WHAT DOCUMENT AND WHERE CAN I FIND IT!
Is that such a complicated question?
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 741
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aaah but - legalities aside...
The problem with the analogy of driving to Scotland,
( other than the fact that one my ex's lives there
),
is that if you DO run out of juice en route,
there aren't so many "Lay-by's" ( of the tarmac variety - not the wee Scottish lass type
)
or "Hard shoulders" etc. to pull safely on to.
You're stuck with an auto into the nearest place that you hope is suitable,
and that you will get away with it.
Get it fixed and it WILL be legal
The problem with the analogy of driving to Scotland,
( other than the fact that one my ex's lives there
), is that if you DO run out of juice en route,
there aren't so many "Lay-by's" ( of the tarmac variety - not the wee Scottish lass type
) or "Hard shoulders" etc. to pull safely on to.
You're stuck with an auto into the nearest place that you hope is suitable,
and that you will get away with it.
Get it fixed and it WILL be legal
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
FFS, if you wanted a straight forward answer with no opinions expressed, or Mickey taken, why come here?
Perhaps you'll find the answer you 'WANT' in CAP 747....or heaven forbid, pick up the phone!
Seems a dodgy SFH if you have to ask this question in the first place, are you being forced to take it?
Besides, it could have been fixed by now. Are there any other serviceability problems you know about...or more importantly don't know about
How would you feel if the next hire car you use had a u/s fuel gauge.
Perhaps you'll find the answer you 'WANT' in CAP 747....or heaven forbid, pick up the phone!
Seems a dodgy SFH if you have to ask this question in the first place, are you being forced to take it?
Besides, it could have been fixed by now. Are there any other serviceability problems you know about...or more importantly don't know about
How would you feel if the next hire car you use had a u/s fuel gauge.
Guest
Posts: n/a
At last a useful reference. CAP 747. Thanks, I will look in there
Yes, I could call the CAA, be put on hold for 15 mins, pay for the call, finally to be put through to someone who says "write to us and we will reply within 45 working days"
And no, I am not being forced to fly this aicraft. I just wanted to know the legal reference for minumum equipment.
Shame we dont have one book of rules like the FARs, Instead we have the ANO, JAR OPS, CAP 747, EU-OPS, etc...
Thanks all.
Yes, I could call the CAA, be put on hold for 15 mins, pay for the call, finally to be put through to someone who says "write to us and we will reply within 45 working days"
And no, I am not being forced to fly this aicraft. I just wanted to know the legal reference for minumum equipment.
Shame we dont have one book of rules like the FARs, Instead we have the ANO, JAR OPS, CAP 747, EU-OPS, etc...
Thanks all.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Whatever the outcome here, in summary;
http://www.skygod.com/quotes/cliches.ht
http://www.skygod.com/quotes/cliches.ht
Believe your instruments.
Never trust a fuel gauge.