Night overwater currency
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 220
Likes: 3
From: australia
Night overwater currency
Hi there chaps
My current organisation is in the very early stages of establishing a night over water (and land) SAR capability and we are currently thrashing out SOPs and so forth.
One of the topics that has created some interesting discussion is currency requirements for night wet winch and wet deck operations. I have based my opinion on a previous life however we need to find a balance between what is achievable, safe and is going to maintain a satisfactory standard.
Our initial draft called for at least one night wet winch (which as a risk mitigator over water must use the automatic modes - aided or not) and one wet deck per month. Ideally we would do more however there are other points (influential) of view which seem to think that even one per month is excessive.
So, what are all you guys out there doing to maintain such a currency and what are your thoughts?
Thanks in advance
Turkey
My current organisation is in the very early stages of establishing a night over water (and land) SAR capability and we are currently thrashing out SOPs and so forth.
One of the topics that has created some interesting discussion is currency requirements for night wet winch and wet deck operations. I have based my opinion on a previous life however we need to find a balance between what is achievable, safe and is going to maintain a satisfactory standard.
Our initial draft called for at least one night wet winch (which as a risk mitigator over water must use the automatic modes - aided or not) and one wet deck per month. Ideally we would do more however there are other points (influential) of view which seem to think that even one per month is excessive.
So, what are all you guys out there doing to maintain such a currency and what are your thoughts?
Thanks in advance
Turkey
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,383
Likes: 1
From: ...in view of the 'Southern Cross' ...
Mmmm ...
..... there are other points (influential) of view which seem to think that even one per month is excessive. ....
And i'd be willing to bet that the above (influential) point of view comes from somebody who will not be called out to actually do the task or has forgotten how very quickly it can go horribly wrong ..... (see recent post re Spanish 139 event).
BTW ... What a/c are you using, how many crews do you need to keep current, will NVGs be used and is the Wx usually benign or vicious?
Cheers
..... there are other points (influential) of view which seem to think that even one per month is excessive. ....
And i'd be willing to bet that the above (influential) point of view comes from somebody who will not be called out to actually do the task or has forgotten how very quickly it can go horribly wrong ..... (see recent post re Spanish 139 event).
BTW ... What a/c are you using, how many crews do you need to keep current, will NVGs be used and is the Wx usually benign or vicious?
Cheers
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 673
Likes: 1
From: On the green bit near the blue wobbly stuff
To counter the "bean-counter" point of view that monthly training is excessive - do you have a strong Health & Safety legislation & culture in your part of the world?
It often gets knocked (usually rightly so) for excessively getting in the way of us doing our day-to-day jobs, but it can be used to our advantage in situations like this. You can argue that the organisation has a legal duty of care to its staff (and customers) to give you the level of training you need to minimise risk. Get a H & S expert to risk-assess a night wet winch and they will go apoplectic!
It often gets knocked (usually rightly so) for excessively getting in the way of us doing our day-to-day jobs, but it can be used to our advantage in situations like this. You can argue that the organisation has a legal duty of care to its staff (and customers) to give you the level of training you need to minimise risk. Get a H & S expert to risk-assess a night wet winch and they will go apoplectic!
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 368
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From: Monde
If you're declaring to your taskers that you have the capability to do night decks and wets, then the once a month currency that you suggest seems about right. It may be that months or even years pass before a genuinely challenging job crops up (depends where you're based I suppose) but if you're saying to the authority that you can do it, they'll expect no less.
Along with the mountains, these are the two areas of SAR where there's the greatest risk of it all going wrong. To get it right when the moment arrives, the whole crew's skills have to be honed to perfection - especially with something like night wets if the winch operator has control of the aircraft.
Along with the mountains, these are the two areas of SAR where there's the greatest risk of it all going wrong. To get it right when the moment arrives, the whole crew's skills have to be honed to perfection - especially with something like night wets if the winch operator has control of the aircraft.
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 46
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From: UK
I think Vie has put it very succinctly. It's difficult to give detailed advice, however, without knowing more aout the operation. For example:
Who is presenting the opposing point of view?
What makes the opposing point of view 'influential'? (£/$?)
What type of operation / coverage / aircraft type / autopilot fit / crew experience requirements are we talking about?
I accept that you might not be willing to give such info on this forum, but a trawl for PMs might give you some useful formal contacts.
For what it's worth, I'll pass on one of my favourite quotes which comes from Stelios Haji-Ioannou, the founder and (currently) non-executive director of EasyJet. He once said "If you think safety is expensive, try an accident." Priceless.
Good luck!
Louis
Who is presenting the opposing point of view?
What makes the opposing point of view 'influential'? (£/$?)
What type of operation / coverage / aircraft type / autopilot fit / crew experience requirements are we talking about?
I accept that you might not be willing to give such info on this forum, but a trawl for PMs might give you some useful formal contacts.
For what it's worth, I'll pass on one of my favourite quotes which comes from Stelios Haji-Ioannou, the founder and (currently) non-executive director of EasyJet. He once said "If you think safety is expensive, try an accident." Priceless.
Good luck!
Louis
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 220
Likes: 3
From: australia
Thanks for the feedback gents and it is appreciated. No real secrets and so far as some of the questions and points:
1. Making it an OH&S (duty of care issue) unlikely....no such thing here in this part of the sandpit....although it is improving.
2. The reason for the opposing point of view for a change doesn't come down to $ but more other factors which include other operational taskings, a very generous duty roster which gives plenty of time off after a shift (and no, no chance of changing it or asking for guys to come in on their days off), ad hoc tasking, EMS tasking and so forth. In addition, the rostered duty crew is not allow to do any training whilst on shift which doesn't help. So it almost falls into the too hard basket!!
3. The aircraft are well equipped, 4 axis type with WX RADAR, FLIR and our operations will be primarily aided,
4. So far as crews, experience is varied but very little in this kind of role, hence the desire to increase the currency/proficiency requirements,
5. AO includes over water and mountains in pretty benign conditions (mostly).
Hope this gives a little more info and all I am trying to do is get a feel for what others are doing in addition to making a few calls.
Thanks again
Turkey
Oh yeh....couldn't agree more
1. Making it an OH&S (duty of care issue) unlikely....no such thing here in this part of the sandpit....although it is improving.
2. The reason for the opposing point of view for a change doesn't come down to $ but more other factors which include other operational taskings, a very generous duty roster which gives plenty of time off after a shift (and no, no chance of changing it or asking for guys to come in on their days off), ad hoc tasking, EMS tasking and so forth. In addition, the rostered duty crew is not allow to do any training whilst on shift which doesn't help. So it almost falls into the too hard basket!!
3. The aircraft are well equipped, 4 axis type with WX RADAR, FLIR and our operations will be primarily aided,
4. So far as crews, experience is varied but very little in this kind of role, hence the desire to increase the currency/proficiency requirements,
5. AO includes over water and mountains in pretty benign conditions (mostly).
Hope this gives a little more info and all I am trying to do is get a feel for what others are doing in addition to making a few calls.
Thanks again
Turkey
For what it's worth, I'll pass on one of my favourite quotes which comes from Stelios Haji-Ioannou, the founder and (currently) non-executive director of EasyJet. He once said "If you think safety is expensive, try an accident." Priceless.
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 120
Likes: 0
From: Aus
Hi,
You could try doing some consolidation training to bring all crews up to the required standard.
Start with day ops and when the standard is acheived, introduce the night ops etc etc.
When the standard is acheived, you can then phase back to a currency requirement.
Cheers,
800
You could try doing some consolidation training to bring all crews up to the required standard.
Start with day ops and when the standard is acheived, introduce the night ops etc etc.
When the standard is acheived, you can then phase back to a currency requirement.
Cheers,
800
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,383
Likes: 1
From: ...in view of the 'Southern Cross' ...
Mmmm ...
Turkey...
If you are where I think (?) you are ... you probably have no chance of changing anything UNTIL a callout occurs which results in an incident which the investigating team cannot blame the crews for (unlikely) ....
Good luck ....
Turkey...
If you are where I think (?) you are ... you probably have no chance of changing anything UNTIL a callout occurs which results in an incident which the investigating team cannot blame the crews for (unlikely) ....
Good luck ....
Joined: Apr 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 10,959
Likes: 1,814
From: EGDC
Turkey - once a month wets and decks might be enough to keep an experienced crew current but is nowhere near what you need for an inexperienced crew.
The problem with box-ticking training is that they could keep current on something the size of a super-tanker and then be faced with a yacht as their first night job.
Despite using NVG for most of your ops your crews will end up doing decks on white light so make sure the aircraft lighting set up is good enough - floodlights plus steerable spots and a means of illuminating the tips and tail.
I trust if you are doing night wets that there is a hover trim facility so the winch op can fly the aircraft with limited authority - our SOP for night wets is hover trim - try doing a manual drum in tricky conditions and you will see why.
Train hard - fight easy.
The problem with box-ticking training is that they could keep current on something the size of a super-tanker and then be faced with a yacht as their first night job.
Despite using NVG for most of your ops your crews will end up doing decks on white light so make sure the aircraft lighting set up is good enough - floodlights plus steerable spots and a means of illuminating the tips and tail.
I trust if you are doing night wets that there is a hover trim facility so the winch op can fly the aircraft with limited authority - our SOP for night wets is hover trim - try doing a manual drum in tricky conditions and you will see why.
Train hard - fight easy.
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 176
Likes: 2
From: Aberdeen
Turkey,
You don't mention it but as per crabs post you definately should have some form of auto hover for night wets.
You also mention benign conditions. Not sure what this refers to but if you talk of weather and sea state contitions don't assume that calm seas will make it any easier. In fact a flat calm, dark night with downwash directly below you, loads of recirculation and nothing to look at is pretty tricky as far as flying goes. Making matters worse (depending on equippment) even the auto hover can struggle in those conditions.
Woolf
You don't mention it but as per crabs post you definately should have some form of auto hover for night wets.
You also mention benign conditions. Not sure what this refers to but if you talk of weather and sea state contitions don't assume that calm seas will make it any easier. In fact a flat calm, dark night with downwash directly below you, loads of recirculation and nothing to look at is pretty tricky as far as flying goes. Making matters worse (depending on equippment) even the auto hover can struggle in those conditions.
Woolf
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
From: Abroad
As a guide, on a government funded full time SAR unit using a fully coupled autohover machine and NVG, one night session of wets or decks per month would be considered a minimum.
As for night overwater SAR without autohover - tried it - scared myself - don't want to do it again. Risk versus Gain way the wrong way.
The current trend of LIMSAR (which I am told is only Limited in scope and not in depth of capability) is a bit worrying. There seems to be more and more places that are trying to put in place the minimum possible SAR assets to satisfy a Safety Case. Often organisations are 'selling' a capability that the poor sods at the sharp end simply cannot safely deliver.
Good Luck!
As for night overwater SAR without autohover - tried it - scared myself - don't want to do it again. Risk versus Gain way the wrong way.
The current trend of LIMSAR (which I am told is only Limited in scope and not in depth of capability) is a bit worrying. There seems to be more and more places that are trying to put in place the minimum possible SAR assets to satisfy a Safety Case. Often organisations are 'selling' a capability that the poor sods at the sharp end simply cannot safely deliver.
Good Luck!
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 220
Likes: 3
From: australia
Thanks again for the input.
Our aircraft do have Auto hover, Winch Trim (or crew hover depending where you come from), Mark on Target and so forth....and aided or not, we have suggested that these modes must be used for night ops over water in order to mitigate the risks a little.
So far as the currency, I certainly agree with all the points and appreciate the feedback. We will continue to put the case forward for as much training as possible (ie increasing proficiency vs simply being current) and we will see how she goes!
cheers
Our aircraft do have Auto hover, Winch Trim (or crew hover depending where you come from), Mark on Target and so forth....and aided or not, we have suggested that these modes must be used for night ops over water in order to mitigate the risks a little.
So far as the currency, I certainly agree with all the points and appreciate the feedback. We will continue to put the case forward for as much training as possible (ie increasing proficiency vs simply being current) and we will see how she goes!
cheers
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 57
Likes: 0
From: Wherever
Go for it
Early days you all need to go for it to get th eexperience.
Start with fully coupled auto hover and see what you can achieve with it but more importantly what it's limitations are(eg glassy sea and doppler mislock etc)
and then develop onto using less automation to allow you to deal with situations that the automatics can't help you with.
This will take time, but when you have an experience bank then you can reduce the training burden as crews have experience to fall back on.
Before I left we were capable of doing full manual letdowns at night for the hell of it, just so we could if needed. All of my rescues at night overwater had an element of manual control due to either conditions or time.
Have fun
Start with fully coupled auto hover and see what you can achieve with it but more importantly what it's limitations are(eg glassy sea and doppler mislock etc)
and then develop onto using less automation to allow you to deal with situations that the automatics can't help you with.
This will take time, but when you have an experience bank then you can reduce the training burden as crews have experience to fall back on.
Before I left we were capable of doing full manual letdowns at night for the hell of it, just so we could if needed. All of my rescues at night overwater had an element of manual control due to either conditions or time.
Have fun
