Agusta AW139
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: On the way to the fridge
Posts: 89
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We had the same problem with a 109 it seems that this happens. We ended up sending the transmission with mast and head back to Agusta.
This of course was after watching the tyech rep hammer away at it for about aweek.
This of course was after watching the tyech rep hammer away at it for about aweek.
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Aberfreeze or the Sandpit
Age: 58
Posts: 136
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Some very shiny 139's on the ramp in Doha yesterday.
Hangers filling up with something else?
139's about to go back into service?
how come the booms don't seem to match each other?
(not a close inspection, just looked different as I was on my way to the pub)
Hangers filling up with something else?
139's about to go back into service?
how come the booms don't seem to match each other?
(not a close inspection, just looked different as I was on my way to the pub)
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Gosport, UK
Age: 71
Posts: 221
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
AW139's back in service for sometime now, in actual fact they were never removed from service by either the operator or any regulatory authority.
Customer confidence took a knock, but after several oil company audits, that has been restored, Gulf Helicopters maintenance or actions, pre or post incident, has never been brought into doubt.
Maybe you never noticed but the AW139's were always there!, hangar has Bell 412's on regular maintenance inside, they took up the slack when customers did not want to fly the AW139, so now maintenance backed up on them, normal stuff when you fly extra hours on one particular type.
Tailbooms are still the same, they will be upgraded to the newer version in time, and before anyone jumps down my throat, 'WAIT FOR THE REPORT' I know, I have read the draft, you'll see it approx January, keep flying and be happy.
S
Customer confidence took a knock, but after several oil company audits, that has been restored, Gulf Helicopters maintenance or actions, pre or post incident, has never been brought into doubt.
Maybe you never noticed but the AW139's were always there!, hangar has Bell 412's on regular maintenance inside, they took up the slack when customers did not want to fly the AW139, so now maintenance backed up on them, normal stuff when you fly extra hours on one particular type.
Tailbooms are still the same, they will be upgraded to the newer version in time, and before anyone jumps down my throat, 'WAIT FOR THE REPORT' I know, I have read the draft, you'll see it approx January, keep flying and be happy.
S
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Logic Free Zone..
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Agusta AW 139 helicopter On going Hyd. Filter Bypass Indication Problems.
Hi Guys.
From the begining the Agusta Aw 139 has had problems with the Hydraulic filter going into bypass (mainly no.2 system, the main system).
This is an expensive excersise changing filters the whole time for seemingly no reason... And Agusta has even admitted this by issuing a letter saying they know about the problem and are working on it
.
has anybody out there got any relyable, believable information as to what the proposed fix is and when they will send out the Tech.bulletin (BT) so we can get past this problem and get some flying done?
From the begining the Agusta Aw 139 has had problems with the Hydraulic filter going into bypass (mainly no.2 system, the main system).
This is an expensive excersise changing filters the whole time for seemingly no reason... And Agusta has even admitted this by issuing a letter saying they know about the problem and are working on it
.has anybody out there got any relyable, believable information as to what the proposed fix is and when they will send out the Tech.bulletin (BT) so we can get past this problem and get some flying done?
hot n dusty.
STOP REPLACING THE FILTERS!!!!!
There is no reason to replace filters or do anything unless the return filter pops as well. Ask Agusta for a letter (I got one) about the problem. Basically the problem is that the pressure switch is too sensitive and pops due to transient short duration pressure pulses across the filter, especially, but no only, when large demands are made on the hydraulic system (eg raising or lowering the undercarriage).
Agusta say that if the return filter has not popped, then contamination is probably not an issue. I have found that by leaving the system untouched, and just resetting the popout, the system will normally settle down after a couple of weeks.
One problem with changing filters all the time is that you can introduce air into the system, which will also cause the popout to pop.
If after leaving the system alone, you still have problems, then ask Agusta for the 1864-40 pressure switch (the standard one is a 1864-10). This is not so sensitive. You will get popouts for the first week or so while air works its way out of the system, but after that you should be fine.
We changed to the -40 and from the popout going every flight, we now don't have it popping ever.
The main thing though, if you have put new filters in, give it at least 2 weeks before you go changing them again. Give it time to work air out of the system.
There is no reason why you cannot fly with the popout popped. Agusta will say that as well if you ask them. If there is contamination in the system, the return filter will block. If there is contamination between the pump and the pressure filter and the pressure filter really does actually begin to block, the undercarriage will be slower to retract.
Once you get the system settled down (2 weeks without changing filters!!!!) any popout from then on should result in changing the filter, and then going back to letting it settle for 2 weeks.
Do not muck about with changing hydraulic pumps. There is no point. You will spend lots of money changing pumps, while introducing more air into the system making the filters pop even more.
There are possibly some aircraft out there that really do have some sort of problem, but in the last 5 years working on the 139, the above has fixed the popout problem on all the 139's I've had it occur on.
PM me if you need any further info.
STOP REPLACING THE FILTERS!!!!!
There is no reason to replace filters or do anything unless the return filter pops as well. Ask Agusta for a letter (I got one) about the problem. Basically the problem is that the pressure switch is too sensitive and pops due to transient short duration pressure pulses across the filter, especially, but no only, when large demands are made on the hydraulic system (eg raising or lowering the undercarriage).
Agusta say that if the return filter has not popped, then contamination is probably not an issue. I have found that by leaving the system untouched, and just resetting the popout, the system will normally settle down after a couple of weeks.
One problem with changing filters all the time is that you can introduce air into the system, which will also cause the popout to pop.
If after leaving the system alone, you still have problems, then ask Agusta for the 1864-40 pressure switch (the standard one is a 1864-10). This is not so sensitive. You will get popouts for the first week or so while air works its way out of the system, but after that you should be fine.
We changed to the -40 and from the popout going every flight, we now don't have it popping ever.
The main thing though, if you have put new filters in, give it at least 2 weeks before you go changing them again. Give it time to work air out of the system.
There is no reason why you cannot fly with the popout popped. Agusta will say that as well if you ask them. If there is contamination in the system, the return filter will block. If there is contamination between the pump and the pressure filter and the pressure filter really does actually begin to block, the undercarriage will be slower to retract.
Once you get the system settled down (2 weeks without changing filters!!!!) any popout from then on should result in changing the filter, and then going back to letting it settle for 2 weeks.
Do not muck about with changing hydraulic pumps. There is no point. You will spend lots of money changing pumps, while introducing more air into the system making the filters pop even more.
There are possibly some aircraft out there that really do have some sort of problem, but in the last 5 years working on the 139, the above has fixed the popout problem on all the 139's I've had it occur on.
PM me if you need any further info.
F**ck me Spinwing.....
Are you guy's still living in the 'chicken ranch'
I know the new pads are far, far, away, but are they not meant to be super duper to attract the pointy shoe brigade away from 'honey bunny' land??
Take care dude,
GTF.
Are you guy's still living in the 'chicken ranch'
I know the new pads are far, far, away, but are they not meant to be super duper to attract the pointy shoe brigade away from 'honey bunny' land??
Take care dude,
GTF.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: ...in view of the 'Southern Cross' ...
Posts: 1,383
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mmm ...
Ha Ha ha .... you better believe it ... and YOU are also invited ... Van 3 ANY TIME ... provided I'm not on leave ....
Take care ....
Ha Ha ha .... you better believe it ... and YOU are also invited ... Van 3 ANY TIME ... provided I'm not on leave ....
Take care ....
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Depends on the day really..
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hydraulic Filters
I agree with your assessment of the filter situation. We would'nt normally change a filter unless we have consecutive pop-outs over several days and it becomes an issue with the pilots getting bored and commenting on the yellow cross on the hyd. synoptic page when they get bored and pull it up during the flight. (AW139 pilots are often bored) I remember this was a problem from delivery in late 2005 and at the time we ran around changing filters and fluid, and even doing the same in the hyd. rigs and sending soap samples of each off to the dodgy local lab that had us even more confused. The other problem that became apparent was Agusta in their wisdom put a very fine filter in both pressure and return. 5 microns was what I heard from a tech.rep. I also heard Eurocopter had the same problem with the 365 when it came out and the fix was........put a 35 micron filter in it instead.......no more problem. Small things really.
I am more concerned with the two earlier BT's to address the servo pressure switch problem and remove serial number batches but still we have regular failures. This brings up a CAS as you know which can be a problem depending on the crew's interpretation of the fault. At least we can now quickly isolate the troublesome switch without a hydraulic rig. I read an article from AW suggesting that a permanent fix was in the pipeline for this problem possibly by using a different vendor, plus the one piece floor issue, and leaking servos both via wiper seals and static seals in the servo body, but haven't heard anything since. Maybe the tailboom problem has blindsided them so much everything else is on hold for now.
WC
I am more concerned with the two earlier BT's to address the servo pressure switch problem and remove serial number batches but still we have regular failures. This brings up a CAS as you know which can be a problem depending on the crew's interpretation of the fault. At least we can now quickly isolate the troublesome switch without a hydraulic rig. I read an article from AW suggesting that a permanent fix was in the pipeline for this problem possibly by using a different vendor, plus the one piece floor issue, and leaking servos both via wiper seals and static seals in the servo body, but haven't heard anything since. Maybe the tailboom problem has blindsided them so much everything else is on hold for now.
WC
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: On the way to the fridge
Posts: 89
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hydraulic Bypass
We are running 2 aircraft with the new -40 bypass switch on the #2 PCM with over 50 hours no bypass. I was told by the tech rep there is 3 problems with the system.
1. The flow rate when the landing gear is cycled sets up a PSID near to the bypass condition of the older dash switches too strong of a spring and the bypass switch would not work.
2. The chafing of the filter in the bowl helps in clogging the filter which again increases the chance of the PSID occuring. So you end up changing a filter when it won't stop poping.
3. Air in the system will cause a bypass however this will only happen after the system has been serviced if you have about 5 hours on the aircraft after servicing the system and have a bypass it is not air in the system.
The fix so I'm told new -40 switch which seem to be working, new type of filter with a loose rivet to allow the filter to spin and the base to remain solid to stop chaffing. I think they may change to micron rating as well. The filters I was told will be out next year.
1. The flow rate when the landing gear is cycled sets up a PSID near to the bypass condition of the older dash switches too strong of a spring and the bypass switch would not work.
2. The chafing of the filter in the bowl helps in clogging the filter which again increases the chance of the PSID occuring. So you end up changing a filter when it won't stop poping.
3. Air in the system will cause a bypass however this will only happen after the system has been serviced if you have about 5 hours on the aircraft after servicing the system and have a bypass it is not air in the system.
The fix so I'm told new -40 switch which seem to be working, new type of filter with a loose rivet to allow the filter to spin and the base to remain solid to stop chaffing. I think they may change to micron rating as well. The filters I was told will be out next year.
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Depends on the day really..
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ahh........The Good Old Days!
Interesting reading all the speculation and expert commentry on the tailboom problem and with the AW139 in general. Seems to me the predecessors of the Bell 412, had major problems with the fin spar cracking at one time also which was not truly eliminated until the advent of cold expansion of fastener holes. Bell recognized a potentially damaging problem and worked long and hard to find a fix. This may be news to all those doomsayers finding fault with the AW139, who I suspect are people not involved with the operation of this heli. I agree that Agusta may have truly miscalculated the forces involved in taxying this large helicopter around using primarily the tail rotor, by not extending the 6 attachment longerons the full length of the forward panels. This large arm coupled with localised heat from exhaust nozzles likely to be affecting/weakening the area immediately behind and below them during taxying and extended hovering. Hang on a minute......didn't the 212 have problems with the baggage bay forward panels delaminating on long line and rescue helicopters!? Yes, and the problem was solved by finding a new and improved bonding procedure to create new 'hot bonded' panels which minimized the problem. Agusta has shifted to new aluminium core composite panels and offers this as a retrofit through BT139-159, but at the customers option/expense. This to me looks as though it will not be the end fix. I think until they go to a full length longeron, the problem cannot be solved through repair or panel replacement. You can bet they are well down the road to finding the end fix as we speak in conjunction with their tailboom supplier. A fix must be found or future sales of this machine are in serious jeopardy. It is interesting to read about the complexities of composite panels from people who have been involved in the repair business for some time, but the problem here is pretty obvious. Every helicopter has had to deal with it at some point during the design stage. The adhesives and processes used on these panels are not new. What seems strange to me is that when I first saw a presentation on the (AB)139 back in I think 2003/4, Agusta suggested there would be no new technology used in the design of the fuselage and tailboom. This ended up being a fully composite aircraft! Only the boffins can explain that one. This aircraft also began it's life as a joint Bell/Agusta product it should be mentioned.
Agusta have some tough decisions to make and fast, no doubt about it. I must say that during the last four years working on this machine, I have found it a breath of fresh air not to have to worry about the next servo change in an oily smelly hell-hole, or the next power section or c-box change with a million AN3C bolts to move, sometimes just to get to a delaminated engine deck, or the next track and balance of the 'greaseless' head and rotor with more rubber and bearings to fail than you can poke a stick at, etc etc. The AW139 is not leaps ahead of the 412 and S76 (Who dreamed up that mess on the roof by the way?!) as an offshore helicopter, it is widely favoured by customers and crews in not only oil support but other roles such as Rescue and VIP. It is a very fast, very powerful and stable platform and is maintenance friendly, with designers for the most part considering the engineers lot as well as the pilot for a change. Once all the hysterical reaction to the tailboom thing goes away, the AW139 will still be out there doing what it does, outperforming the opposition. Good luck with the EC175, Eurocopter.......same aircraft, only 5 years late.
There, I've said my bit. WC
Agusta have some tough decisions to make and fast, no doubt about it. I must say that during the last four years working on this machine, I have found it a breath of fresh air not to have to worry about the next servo change in an oily smelly hell-hole, or the next power section or c-box change with a million AN3C bolts to move, sometimes just to get to a delaminated engine deck, or the next track and balance of the 'greaseless' head and rotor with more rubber and bearings to fail than you can poke a stick at, etc etc. The AW139 is not leaps ahead of the 412 and S76 (Who dreamed up that mess on the roof by the way?!) as an offshore helicopter, it is widely favoured by customers and crews in not only oil support but other roles such as Rescue and VIP. It is a very fast, very powerful and stable platform and is maintenance friendly, with designers for the most part considering the engineers lot as well as the pilot for a change. Once all the hysterical reaction to the tailboom thing goes away, the AW139 will still be out there doing what it does, outperforming the opposition. Good luck with the EC175, Eurocopter.......same aircraft, only 5 years late.
There, I've said my bit. WC
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: West Coast
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hydraulic Buttons
Our experience with the hydraulic bypass is this, even with the new button, in warm weather we still get a popped by pass indication after every flight on the No2 side. as the cold weather has set in we no longer experience this issue. Nobby has a good point about air in the system, When changing filters I fill the filter bowl with oil when reinstalling the filter. We just reset when it pops, it is sensless to change the filter every time.
DAY 12 of the rotor head pull, last week Chilling the mast with C02 and Heat on the MR Head, did not work. then we tried a 20 ton bottle jack and sling that that has not worked either. Its got agusta s attention now.
DAY 12 of the rotor head pull, last week Chilling the mast with C02 and Heat on the MR Head, did not work. then we tried a 20 ton bottle jack and sling that that has not worked either. Its got agusta s attention now.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near the Mountains
Age: 67
Posts: 345
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
DAY 12 of the rotor head pull, last week Chilling the mast with C02 and Heat on the MR Head, did not work. then we tried a 20 ton bottle jack and sling that that has not worked either. Its got agusta s attention now.
Just beating the air into submission!
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
DAY 12 of the rotor head pull, last week Chilling the mast with C02 and Heat on the MR Head, did not work. then we tried a 20 ton bottle jack and sling that that has not worked either. Its got agusta s attention now.