R22 down near Rockhampton
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"Mustering Guru;
to help us all put your considerable experience into context, what did you learn on, and how many hours didyou have before going on to the R22? Today 04:56"
AIRPOLICE I'm sure i detected a little bit of sarcasm there and even though he will probaly come to his own defence I thought i should let you know that the 6500hrs that MG amassed in an R22 was at the start of his career and that he probaly has quite a few more than that now. Which would include different types of operations in a broad range of aircraft in some of the hardest and remotest parts of the world to fly in!!!
And no I am not the head of his fan club.
to help us all put your considerable experience into context, what did you learn on, and how many hours didyou have before going on to the R22? Today 04:56"
AIRPOLICE I'm sure i detected a little bit of sarcasm there and even though he will probaly come to his own defence I thought i should let you know that the 6500hrs that MG amassed in an R22 was at the start of his career and that he probaly has quite a few more than that now. Which would include different types of operations in a broad range of aircraft in some of the hardest and remotest parts of the world to fly in!!!
And no I am not the head of his fan club.
Even when operating over gross weight at crazy DA's.
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Don't worry Crab. I would be very surprised if many mustering pilots frequent this forum. Most wouldn't know how to work the interweb. You will however find there are a lot of ex-mustering pilots who have gone onto bigger machines (yes, really), where they don't have to push the limits as nearly as often.
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Yes it’s very easy to over load the R22, any model. With an empty weight of around 392KG’s driver at say 85, full fuel (with aux as they all have) at another 85 it only gives you 60 spare for a pax without junk under the seat. I know of an instructor, musterer who had been checking out a trainee of 110 a few years back. He himself was 110 plus, with fuel pump, 5 litres of water, and the usual 10 to 15 kg under the seats. He was running at about 120% max AUW. I’ve often seen those figures, or worse.
There is no doubt that where most diverge from legislated procedure is in the weight limitations and time recording, or lack of it. Why? I know of people who position three hours and more each way for free, I’ll lay good odds there’s nothing on the MR to reflect it and they easily put others more honest and closer, out of business.
Many have problems being able to do good emergencies out of school and wouldn’t know the correct Manufacturers settings on auto RPM if they fell over them. Mind you a strict audit on most flying schools in this country would reveal the same problem. That's a hand grenade that's well overdue.
The biggest problem is that most of these dudes are not aviators; they most often fell out of a saddle (or a tree) and decided to take on helicopters. In fact many of them did fall out; they would not be what we would recognise as a ‘good ringer’. (Professional stockman of high esteem)
High DA’s Crab; no need to worry about that, it’s par for the course in the hot times here and of course the higher the DA the less chance these mugs have of over boosting.
When the Beta II came out it was most noticeable that many complained of the bright light on the xmons temp bulb. Well I wonder why? The mugs just loaded up and with the magic correlated collective just didn’t take any notice of power that they pulled. Many reckoned that they could pull more because they had it! A Beta II with a bigger engine for performance at high DA has the same power limitations as the Beta.
It’s interesting to note that ATSB are going to do a survey on the failed belts syndrome. I think that what they don’t find will be much more telling than what they do find. ‘Yes yer ‘onor, them sheaves wasn’t worn out when I changed them belts’, and ‘nah, we never overloaded it, ‘onest we didn’t’, and so on. The average belt life in the accident report story is also interesting, 323 hours. I usually get >600 easy, I wonder why?
Frank wants to fix these dudes? Easy, put an automatic cattle prodder in the seat, every time they do something silly, have it go off.
Oh, and rule number 1, never chase a calf, they always run back on themselves. Rule number 2, never pressure cattle too much or the calves will spill, then see rule number 1. And if you can’t manoeuvre an R22 close the ground without hitting the T/R, give up now while you’re still alive.
There is no doubt that where most diverge from legislated procedure is in the weight limitations and time recording, or lack of it. Why? I know of people who position three hours and more each way for free, I’ll lay good odds there’s nothing on the MR to reflect it and they easily put others more honest and closer, out of business.
Many have problems being able to do good emergencies out of school and wouldn’t know the correct Manufacturers settings on auto RPM if they fell over them. Mind you a strict audit on most flying schools in this country would reveal the same problem. That's a hand grenade that's well overdue.
The biggest problem is that most of these dudes are not aviators; they most often fell out of a saddle (or a tree) and decided to take on helicopters. In fact many of them did fall out; they would not be what we would recognise as a ‘good ringer’. (Professional stockman of high esteem)
High DA’s Crab; no need to worry about that, it’s par for the course in the hot times here and of course the higher the DA the less chance these mugs have of over boosting.
When the Beta II came out it was most noticeable that many complained of the bright light on the xmons temp bulb. Well I wonder why? The mugs just loaded up and with the magic correlated collective just didn’t take any notice of power that they pulled. Many reckoned that they could pull more because they had it! A Beta II with a bigger engine for performance at high DA has the same power limitations as the Beta.
It’s interesting to note that ATSB are going to do a survey on the failed belts syndrome. I think that what they don’t find will be much more telling than what they do find. ‘Yes yer ‘onor, them sheaves wasn’t worn out when I changed them belts’, and ‘nah, we never overloaded it, ‘onest we didn’t’, and so on. The average belt life in the accident report story is also interesting, 323 hours. I usually get >600 easy, I wonder why?
Frank wants to fix these dudes? Easy, put an automatic cattle prodder in the seat, every time they do something silly, have it go off.
Oh, and rule number 1, never chase a calf, they always run back on themselves. Rule number 2, never pressure cattle too much or the calves will spill, then see rule number 1. And if you can’t manoeuvre an R22 close the ground without hitting the T/R, give up now while you’re still alive.
I'd like a dollar for every time both mustering pilots and R22's have been flogged on this forum!
Here's my 2 cents worth....
There has been a gradual change in the Australian helicopter mustering industry over it's life span and I think it can be broken down into 3 basic categories.
1) In the beginning there were the aviators who learnt to get in behind cattle that had very rarely if at all seen any type of machinery before and many of which had rarely if at all seen a white man before. These 'pioneers' were aviators with a brand new slate in front of them and there were the lucky and clever few that built their own small empires out of a new industry. They weren't necessarily good cattlemen, to an extent they didn't need to be. A lot of the work as previously mentioned was dealing with animals that had extremely little to no handling and capturing them was a whole different ball game. Don't get me wrong, mustering bush cattle is a fine art in itself and that era created many a fine artist in that field.
2) Following the ambition of what they saw came the young men that grew up in that country and had the fortitude to get their ratings and become mustering pilots. This generation, in my opinion were the ideal mix of aviator and ruralist. Thanks to their backgrounds they had sound ability and knowledge in the game and thanks to their predecessors they had sound aviation instruction and standards instilled creating a good mix of animal husbandry and airmanship. Still in the days of some very 'loose' regulation their accountability and adherence to the rules weren't exactly down the line but such is that industry at that time. These guys intimately understood their machines and flew to a very high standard and though be it substantially unregulated. In my opinion the best mustering pilots to this day were bred in this era.
3) Thanks to the development of the beef industry and largely to the availability and cost of the R22, modern days see it that there are almost more R22's inn the north of Australia then there is tray back Toyota's! A huge trend of self regulated head stockmen, managers with their own helicopters doing their own work without the crucial support of good quality and experienced aviators to mentor them to a standard of safety that would see the industry today a much safer place. Their ability to handle stock is a large factor in the outcome of their task but their ability to aviate is a large factor in the outcome of safety and that is what is missing.
As I said, just my 2 cents worth. Though I may have dribbled on a little more than that.
Widewoodenwingswork.... I think you'll find that there many mustering pilots out there very computer and internet literate and you're being a bit unfair old son. The mustering industry has produced some excellent pilots and is largely responsible for the growth of the helicopter industry in Australia. Anyone who has a bad word to say about these guys, and the R22 for that matter should take the time to look into the industry a little more.....
In my opinion, anyone that hasn't been over max gross here and there and tested the limits of their machine has not done any real flying and are best suited to where they are. It's part of the industry when you are actually 'working'! That covers many more sectors than the mustering industry. I have.. In my opinion I have never abused a helicopter and I have been in situations where I have needed to get the best out of my machine for a pile of different reasons and scenarios... I've seen people abuse machinery inside the limits just by being rough handlers and people nurse machinery without no dramas on the high side of it's limits by being good smooth operators. Rules were made for the guidance of wise men and blind obedience of idiots!
Here's my 2 cents worth....
There has been a gradual change in the Australian helicopter mustering industry over it's life span and I think it can be broken down into 3 basic categories.
1) In the beginning there were the aviators who learnt to get in behind cattle that had very rarely if at all seen any type of machinery before and many of which had rarely if at all seen a white man before. These 'pioneers' were aviators with a brand new slate in front of them and there were the lucky and clever few that built their own small empires out of a new industry. They weren't necessarily good cattlemen, to an extent they didn't need to be. A lot of the work as previously mentioned was dealing with animals that had extremely little to no handling and capturing them was a whole different ball game. Don't get me wrong, mustering bush cattle is a fine art in itself and that era created many a fine artist in that field.
2) Following the ambition of what they saw came the young men that grew up in that country and had the fortitude to get their ratings and become mustering pilots. This generation, in my opinion were the ideal mix of aviator and ruralist. Thanks to their backgrounds they had sound ability and knowledge in the game and thanks to their predecessors they had sound aviation instruction and standards instilled creating a good mix of animal husbandry and airmanship. Still in the days of some very 'loose' regulation their accountability and adherence to the rules weren't exactly down the line but such is that industry at that time. These guys intimately understood their machines and flew to a very high standard and though be it substantially unregulated. In my opinion the best mustering pilots to this day were bred in this era.
3) Thanks to the development of the beef industry and largely to the availability and cost of the R22, modern days see it that there are almost more R22's inn the north of Australia then there is tray back Toyota's! A huge trend of self regulated head stockmen, managers with their own helicopters doing their own work without the crucial support of good quality and experienced aviators to mentor them to a standard of safety that would see the industry today a much safer place. Their ability to handle stock is a large factor in the outcome of their task but their ability to aviate is a large factor in the outcome of safety and that is what is missing.
As I said, just my 2 cents worth. Though I may have dribbled on a little more than that.
Widewoodenwingswork.... I think you'll find that there many mustering pilots out there very computer and internet literate and you're being a bit unfair old son. The mustering industry has produced some excellent pilots and is largely responsible for the growth of the helicopter industry in Australia. Anyone who has a bad word to say about these guys, and the R22 for that matter should take the time to look into the industry a little more.....
In my opinion, anyone that hasn't been over max gross here and there and tested the limits of their machine has not done any real flying and are best suited to where they are. It's part of the industry when you are actually 'working'! That covers many more sectors than the mustering industry. I have.. In my opinion I have never abused a helicopter and I have been in situations where I have needed to get the best out of my machine for a pile of different reasons and scenarios... I've seen people abuse machinery inside the limits just by being rough handlers and people nurse machinery without no dramas on the high side of it's limits by being good smooth operators. Rules were made for the guidance of wise men and blind obedience of idiots!
A brief comment on your point 1, bellfest. In the beginning there was ex military pilots travelling the country in B47's trying to convince cocky's that helicopters were the way of the future. Years later, once helicopter mustering was well established, ringers started getting there licence & took over from the ex military pilots. Maybe put this as a prelude to your point 1.
Thanks heliduck..... Most importantly I like to fly the flag for the established mustering company's and those that have passed through or are still in the mustering game and doing it in a safe, trained and aviation orientated manner. Australia's helicopter industry would not have the depth and quality that it has without it.......
Like anyone else who has had the good fortune of being involved in one or more good mustering operations I consider myself fortunate for my background and experience.
Participating in a variety of different roles since then I still consider the practices of a well run mustering company as good and at times better than any of the 'big' professional company's who possess operations, procedures and safety management system manuals stacked so high that an R22 couldn't lift them off the ground!
Like anyone else who has had the good fortune of being involved in one or more good mustering operations I consider myself fortunate for my background and experience.
Participating in a variety of different roles since then I still consider the practices of a well run mustering company as good and at times better than any of the 'big' professional company's who possess operations, procedures and safety management system manuals stacked so high that an R22 couldn't lift them off the ground!
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Airpolice-
I did all my training on the R22 and then went on to go mustering in the machine for about 6 years accident and incident free. Since then have moved on to bigger and better things. I will say mustering would have to be the best training ground for any up coming pilot, everyday is different.
Bellfest-
Well said mate spot on!
I did all my training on the R22 and then went on to go mustering in the machine for about 6 years accident and incident free. Since then have moved on to bigger and better things. I will say mustering would have to be the best training ground for any up coming pilot, everyday is different.
Bellfest-
Well said mate spot on!
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Robinson - best selling helicopter in the world.
It goes without saying that the best selling helicopter in the world will have more flying hours than any other machine. The R22 and R44 are both excellent machines and I have flown both for 15 years. Really these negative comments are simply sour grapes.
Not all of us can fly Bell, Augusta etc - The Robinson has opened up helicopter flying to the masses and Frank deserves credit for what he has achieved.
Look forward to the R66 .....
Not all of us can fly Bell, Augusta etc - The Robinson has opened up helicopter flying to the masses and Frank deserves credit for what he has achieved.
Look forward to the R66 .....
