Does who you train with make a difference?
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Does who you train with make a difference?
Hey hey,
I'm in my early learning curve for CPL but I was just curious if anyone has any advice or experience to share regarding your training? I want to get my CPL as soon as I can but is it worth just going with the flow with a cheaper school or spending a bit of extra cash and time with a school with a good rep for the same end result? I know this may sound pretty straight forward but i'm interested to hear what people have to say.
Thanks
I'm in my early learning curve for CPL but I was just curious if anyone has any advice or experience to share regarding your training? I want to get my CPL as soon as I can but is it worth just going with the flow with a cheaper school or spending a bit of extra cash and time with a school with a good rep for the same end result? I know this may sound pretty straight forward but i'm interested to hear what people have to say.
Thanks
Last edited by Cirrusly; 18th Jan 2010 at 11:34.
Knowing what I know now, I would recommend going with a school who gives a better service, even if it means a higher cost.
Some schools out there have better instructors than others, but you need quality training when doing your CPL. Make sure your training is structured, and I mean make sure the instructor knows your strengths weaknesses and concentrates on the necessary items. Also, don't let your instructor use you as a taxi service whilst doing CPL training. You are paying a lot of money per hour so get maximum value!
Some schools out there have better instructors than others, but you need quality training when doing your CPL. Make sure your training is structured, and I mean make sure the instructor knows your strengths weaknesses and concentrates on the necessary items. Also, don't let your instructor use you as a taxi service whilst doing CPL training. You are paying a lot of money per hour so get maximum value!
"Just a pilot"
My opinion, and my opinion only- YES!
On the student experience, a well-run school with adequate resources makes your efficient training less than an accident.
Flight training is an intensely personal experience. You and the instructor have to "fit". An experienced and resourceful teacher can usually find a way to adapt to different students, but the possibility of failure exists. A school with many instructors help against that.
The way you train will be with you forever in one fashion or another. Your initial professional experience is very much a reflection of training, but you'll learn and adapt. My opinion, and perhaps controversial is that immediate response emergencies and your success in dealing with them will be forever influenced by your initial training. When the stress is on, the first and strongest response will be very much shaped by your first training.
I'm amused by those who pick their school primarily by cost. Not diminishing the importance of a realistic budget, but won't necessarily select the cheapest physician, surgeon, dentist, accountant or legal, representation because quality of service is a very important criterion in life-changing situations. The way you fly very definitely impacts your life...
On the student experience, a well-run school with adequate resources makes your efficient training less than an accident.
Flight training is an intensely personal experience. You and the instructor have to "fit". An experienced and resourceful teacher can usually find a way to adapt to different students, but the possibility of failure exists. A school with many instructors help against that.
The way you train will be with you forever in one fashion or another. Your initial professional experience is very much a reflection of training, but you'll learn and adapt. My opinion, and perhaps controversial is that immediate response emergencies and your success in dealing with them will be forever influenced by your initial training. When the stress is on, the first and strongest response will be very much shaped by your first training.
I'm amused by those who pick their school primarily by cost. Not diminishing the importance of a realistic budget, but won't necessarily select the cheapest physician, surgeon, dentist, accountant or legal, representation because quality of service is a very important criterion in life-changing situations. The way you fly very definitely impacts your life...
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It makes a HUGE difference,
Whilst the school with the good reputation should have good and varied instructors, who will YOU be flying with and do you get on with them. Go visit the schools and get to know the instructors, organisation, facilities etc. Talk to existing and past students then decide.
Do not decide your CPL just on costs.
Best of luck
Whilst the school with the good reputation should have good and varied instructors, who will YOU be flying with and do you get on with them. Go visit the schools and get to know the instructors, organisation, facilities etc. Talk to existing and past students then decide.
Do not decide your CPL just on costs.
Best of luck
Last edited by tony 1969; 17th Jan 2010 at 18:42. Reason: spelling
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The criteria I applied were (1) who is going to help me most (at all !) with getting paid work when it's all over, (2) who will give me the best training (that includes finding an instructor you get on with), then (3) cost and convenience.
No-one will ever promise you work, but it's easier to have the conversation when you have something they want (Money !).
Good luck !
No-one will ever promise you work, but it's easier to have the conversation when you have something they want (Money !).
Good luck !
Short answer: YES!
But it's all about the instructor rather than the school. Of course some schools make it more likely that you'll have a good instructor than others do. A "puppy mill" where your instructor has 250.2 hours is more or less bound to be unsatisfactory (unless you get very lucky). My three main instructors (PPL-ASEL & IR, aerobatics, PPL-H respectively) have each had around 10,000hours and lots of instructing experience, and were (and are still) a delight to fly with and learn from, though plenty strict when necessary.
Otoh I have had one experienced instructor who was hopeless (my first tailwheel instructor), one fairly low-time instructor who I liked a lot and who was very good (but he is also a PhD in aero engineering), and several instructors for odds and ends over the years who were just about OK but no more than that.
So really it's about maximizing the chances of finding an instructor who you can work well with, and then finding the right person.
n5296s
But it's all about the instructor rather than the school. Of course some schools make it more likely that you'll have a good instructor than others do. A "puppy mill" where your instructor has 250.2 hours is more or less bound to be unsatisfactory (unless you get very lucky). My three main instructors (PPL-ASEL & IR, aerobatics, PPL-H respectively) have each had around 10,000hours and lots of instructing experience, and were (and are still) a delight to fly with and learn from, though plenty strict when necessary.
Otoh I have had one experienced instructor who was hopeless (my first tailwheel instructor), one fairly low-time instructor who I liked a lot and who was very good (but he is also a PhD in aero engineering), and several instructors for odds and ends over the years who were just about OK but no more than that.
So really it's about maximizing the chances of finding an instructor who you can work well with, and then finding the right person.
n5296s
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Spend the extra money if you have to!
On a different note, I trainied with a hight-time instructor and because of his contacts I started a full time flying job with just under 200 hrs in my log book. Try that if you train at Helipro.
On a different note, I trainied with a hight-time instructor and because of his contacts I started a full time flying job with just under 200 hrs in my log book. Try that if you train at Helipro.
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Hey hey everyone,
Thanks a lot for your thoughts. The general consensus is just what I expected and was hoping to hear. I have a friend or two who are well into the thousands of hours that would probably say the same. I recently looked at a school that is currently at a base rate of $600 an hour for an R22 compared to where i'm currently based which is about $460 an hour for the same machine. The difference for the amount of hours I have left is about $13,000.
Is this still worth the extra investment? I would definitely go if it were $5000 give or take but that kind of cash could get me a lot more hours after i'm qualified.
Thanks a lot for your thoughts. The general consensus is just what I expected and was hoping to hear. I have a friend or two who are well into the thousands of hours that would probably say the same. I recently looked at a school that is currently at a base rate of $600 an hour for an R22 compared to where i'm currently based which is about $460 an hour for the same machine. The difference for the amount of hours I have left is about $13,000.
Is this still worth the extra investment? I would definitely go if it were $5000 give or take but that kind of cash could get me a lot more hours after i'm qualified.
Hovering AND talking
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So you have just under 100 hours to go? What sort of course are you on? Integrated?
If you're doing a modular course, then some of the hour building time can be done anywhere.
Cheers
Whirls
If you're doing a modular course, then some of the hour building time can be done anywhere.
Cheers
Whirls
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I am with the majority here: Yes, it does.
Always remember two things:
1. Cheapest is not necessarily best.
2. You only get what you pay for and that is a licence. Not more (i.e. job) and not less (unless your pocket 'runs out of fuel').
Always remember two things:
1. Cheapest is not necessarily best.
2. You only get what you pay for and that is a licence. Not more (i.e. job) and not less (unless your pocket 'runs out of fuel').
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Hi Cirrusly,
Finding the right instructor is a bit of a twisted story. Pilots including myself are generally egoistic people. It does let you stay alive and sane in long run. It can be a bit tricky to find an instructer who is seriously intrestet in you becoming a good pilot. I guess flying a chopper is only partually theoretically based, most things during flight have to be sensed by the personal ways of the PIC. So in a way you have to be lucky enough to find an Instructer who can motivate you towards that skill. I found that it is a little too common for low time pilots to start working as instructors, because it lowers the costs per hour for the operator. Don't go with that! My advise: Try two or three more experienced ones to get a picture of what the differences are and then make a decission. It shoulldn't be much more than that as it gets to confusing after a while. I had about 7 or 8 different instructors in 04/05 and it resulted in many misunderstandings on the flight deck (not very advisable).
Finding the right instructor is a bit of a twisted story. Pilots including myself are generally egoistic people. It does let you stay alive and sane in long run. It can be a bit tricky to find an instructer who is seriously intrestet in you becoming a good pilot. I guess flying a chopper is only partually theoretically based, most things during flight have to be sensed by the personal ways of the PIC. So in a way you have to be lucky enough to find an Instructer who can motivate you towards that skill. I found that it is a little too common for low time pilots to start working as instructors, because it lowers the costs per hour for the operator. Don't go with that! My advise: Try two or three more experienced ones to get a picture of what the differences are and then make a decission. It shoulldn't be much more than that as it gets to confusing after a while. I had about 7 or 8 different instructors in 04/05 and it resulted in many misunderstandings on the flight deck (not very advisable).
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I'm having trouble with keeping an instructor at my school. One week i'll be with one and next week another. I don't have anything against them, they just have to keep asking me where i'm up to. Shouldn't it be the other way around? The one instructor I want to fly with any time of day has been shunted by the CFI to do a day here or there when needed. I prefer to be with ONE instructor and go with the CFI when I need to.
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I would insist on utilising the same instructor, preferably in a mutually happy and constructive environment - continuity, certainly for the majority of a course is important in achieiving the desired result in a sensible timeframe. This of course is subject to the resources available form the training school involved but you are paying them!!
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Or consider the option of not going with a school at all. Just find an freelance instructor and pay him direct. He will have access to an aircraft, so hire that direct from the owner. Then base yourself at your local licensed airfield and off you go.
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in NZ some of the student loan factories are charging what they like because the students cant go anywhere else unless they learn in a new town.
They also have students sign contracts which commit them to finishing half or all of the course.
I remember Auckland Helicopters leasing a 300 from across the runway because a student arrived too big for the R22s they used. They charged him 500 an hour.
That was in 2003.
Seriously, You need to get a little more proactive about your training. You only need to get more proactive when you start looking for work.
They also have students sign contracts which commit them to finishing half or all of the course.
I remember Auckland Helicopters leasing a 300 from across the runway because a student arrived too big for the R22s they used. They charged him 500 an hour.
That was in 2003.
Seriously, You need to get a little more proactive about your training. You only need to get more proactive when you start looking for work.
Or consider the option of not going with a school at all. Just find an freelance instructor and pay him direct. He will have access to an aircraft, so hire that direct from the owner. Then base yourself at your local licensed airfield and off you go.
Who you train with makes a huge difference. You can spend silly amounts of money if flying with an unengaged, incompetent, or greedy instructor. Rules of thumb:-
A good instructor will use as much of the available flight time to get stuff across or make sure learning or effective practice is taking place. A bad one will sit there and let the bucks burn while you fly to "the training area" (good for wasting serious hours that one).
A good instructor will always be honest with you and have your interests at heart. Bad one will string you along.
A good instructor will observe a logical development in the training. A bad one will jump about and and do excersises that belong elsewhere in the training and that you arenīt ready for (but are easy &/or fun for the instructor...).
A good instructor will be honest about their mistakes and defecits and not bull****. A bad one will blag mistakes and avoid exercises that they arenīt good at or comfortable with.
Recent example for me: Student 1 solo in circa 20 hours, making steady progress. Student 2 solo in circa 40 hours, big hole in the budget looming for them. Flew with both students. No noticable difference in aptitude. But student 2 was handed over to a weak instructor to get their hoursī up. Shame on you both MF & SH if you are reading this. You betrayed the studentīs trust.
Get a copy of the training syllabus and make sure you are doing what it says: and be assertive with your instructor and get a good deal for your dosh is my advice.
TT
