Helicopter needed for mercy mission in Fife area.
Just to clarify - my comments on this thread have nothing to do with being mil but everything to do with being a Search and Rescue pilot - the clue is in the Search part of the title as we do rather a lot of it, especially for missing persons in bad weather overland.
As any police pilot will tell you (they do a shedload of searching as well) you can actually see very little from a helicopter, even with the addition of FLIR/TV, NVG et al - and the best technique is to have good information/intel to make the search area as small as possible - then you can concentrate on searching that small area thoroughly.
You can make yourself feel better by tooling along searching miles of countryside if you like but your probability of detection (yes is is scientific and mathematic) is so low as to be pointless.
The first thing you need is an accurate description of the misper, including colour/type of clothing - the next is the likely route, then you look at the mental state of the misper (self-harmer, depressed, alzheimers etc) then the last known position, any favourite places, time of day. weather etc etc the list is endless.
The Police will have already done this and allocated a POLSA (search coordinator) who will task appropriate assets (ground and air as required) and also look at 'pinging' the mispers mobile to help.
A great deal of thought and planning goes into searching to ensure it is done as carefully, methodically and efficiently as possible - only those who have never done it would assume just getting untrained people airborne in a random fashion would actually help matters.
It is tragic when someone close disappears but the harsh facts are that a. accidents happen and b. sometimes people disappear deliberately.
I remain hopeful in a happy outcome to this situation but don't slag me off for offering a professional opinion on what is a professional forum.
As any police pilot will tell you (they do a shedload of searching as well) you can actually see very little from a helicopter, even with the addition of FLIR/TV, NVG et al - and the best technique is to have good information/intel to make the search area as small as possible - then you can concentrate on searching that small area thoroughly.
You can make yourself feel better by tooling along searching miles of countryside if you like but your probability of detection (yes is is scientific and mathematic) is so low as to be pointless.
The first thing you need is an accurate description of the misper, including colour/type of clothing - the next is the likely route, then you look at the mental state of the misper (self-harmer, depressed, alzheimers etc) then the last known position, any favourite places, time of day. weather etc etc the list is endless.
The Police will have already done this and allocated a POLSA (search coordinator) who will task appropriate assets (ground and air as required) and also look at 'pinging' the mispers mobile to help.
A great deal of thought and planning goes into searching to ensure it is done as carefully, methodically and efficiently as possible - only those who have never done it would assume just getting untrained people airborne in a random fashion would actually help matters.
It is tragic when someone close disappears but the harsh facts are that a. accidents happen and b. sometimes people disappear deliberately.
I remain hopeful in a happy outcome to this situation but don't slag me off for offering a professional opinion on what is a professional forum.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Nigel,
I suggest you checkout the Rotorheads Calendar for October 2009.
SS
I suggest you checkout the Rotorheads Calendar for October 2009.
SS
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There appears to be an organisation who do exactly that... perhaps they could help?
Sky Watch Civil Air Patrol
Hope it turns out well.
Sky Watch Civil Air Patrol
Hope it turns out well.
Crab ...I apologise , there was no offence meant and i hope you have good time in the Falklands . In shall confine my criticism / Banter with Mil pilots to face to face in future !! I do still think there is an unused resource of pilots stooging along certain routes who could be asked to look out for a misper ( and they would not need to be above 500 if flying over walking territory )
ps Silsoe ...cool down , its only a commercial ....
ps Silsoe ...cool down , its only a commercial ....
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
nigelh
Unfortunately Nigelh, for some of us it isn't. 
(Checkout January 2009 calendar)
ps Silsoe ...cool down , its only a commercial ....
(Checkout January 2009 calendar)
If offering advice to let the Police get on with their job (my first post) is an anally complex post then I am guilty as charged.
If then explaining some of the realities concerning searching after lots of unwarranted personal attacks (my second post) is anally complex then again I am gulity as charged.
This is a professional pilots forum and all of us who do searching as part of our job seem to be in agreement and at odds with those that don't - make your own mind up as to whether we are full of ourselves or just trying to give others a professional's viewpoint of an emotive situation.
If then explaining some of the realities concerning searching after lots of unwarranted personal attacks (my second post) is anally complex then again I am gulity as charged.
This is a professional pilots forum and all of us who do searching as part of our job seem to be in agreement and at odds with those that don't - make your own mind up as to whether we are full of ourselves or just trying to give others a professional's viewpoint of an emotive situation.
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crab
I agree searching by untrained volunteers won't be as effective as by the professionals, but what's the harm of them trying?
Or other helicopter pilots keeping a lookout for the missing man if their route takes them through the area?
I agree searching by untrained volunteers won't be as effective as by the professionals, but what's the harm of them trying?
Or other helicopter pilots keeping a lookout for the missing man if their route takes them through the area?
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Bronx asks "I agree searching by untrained volunteers won't be as effective as by the professionals, but what's the harm of them trying?"
How about this as an answer?
Lynx crash ruled an accident
The guys in this crash were no doubt a very capable crew, but SAR wasn't their core business and it bit them on the arse. Searching by untrained volunteers is, I'm afraid, likely to be fruitless (as it can be when conducted by trained crews), and as evidenced here can be fraught with difficulty and danger
How about this as an answer?
Lynx crash ruled an accident
The guys in this crash were no doubt a very capable crew, but SAR wasn't their core business and it bit them on the arse. Searching by untrained volunteers is, I'm afraid, likely to be fruitless (as it can be when conducted by trained crews), and as evidenced here can be fraught with difficulty and danger
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Gedney - you may be right, but the Lynx crash you reference does not support an argument that untrained people are at risk - or at any more risk than when they are flying for some other purpose. Reading the link, there is no conclusion as to why the crash happened. A bit of a waste citing that one, I thought.
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The Navy Lynx accident occurred overwater, at night so perhaps not really relevant; it sounds like that crew possibly suffered loss of spatial awareness and loss of control in the dark.
Speaking as a military trained, ex-SAR pilot and ex-chief pilot of a UK police ASU, I still think it would do no harm for anyone airborne in the area to go and have a look, provided that the presence of their aircraft did not hinder either a police or SAR helicopter already on scene, or be flown in a manner in which it would interfere with a ground search party.
It sounds to me that in this sad case no "official" aircraft would be in the area.
As a police helicopter pilot I remember being stood down from a prolonged night search, for an old man suffering from Alzheimer's, who had wandered off late one freezing cold afternoon in the winter. Unfortunately he was later found in a ditch, just outside of the large area we had searched, but he had already long perished from hypothermia. Despite his sad demise, the relatives were grateful because it was a relief for his body to be found; at least they had closure.
Speaking as a military trained, ex-SAR pilot and ex-chief pilot of a UK police ASU, I still think it would do no harm for anyone airborne in the area to go and have a look, provided that the presence of their aircraft did not hinder either a police or SAR helicopter already on scene, or be flown in a manner in which it would interfere with a ground search party.
It sounds to me that in this sad case no "official" aircraft would be in the area.
As a police helicopter pilot I remember being stood down from a prolonged night search, for an old man suffering from Alzheimer's, who had wandered off late one freezing cold afternoon in the winter. Unfortunately he was later found in a ditch, just outside of the large area we had searched, but he had already long perished from hypothermia. Despite his sad demise, the relatives were grateful because it was a relief for his body to be found; at least they had closure.
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there are a couple of people on here who have rather over inflated opinions of themselves, not naming any names, but im sure in this thread its obvious!
OK I'll try again - what does the fact that the police helo had conducted a search and there was no SAR helo tasked tell you?
Shy -your caveats about involvement are unlikely to be met - even if there is no police or SAR heli aircraft to conflict with, is the 'unofficial' helicopter going to be flown safely in poor weather whilst conducting any form of meaningful search?
If it is single pilot there is no way that any searching can be conducted without seriously compromising lookout - if there is more than one crew it helps but if they see something, what do they do? They could land, if conditions permit and either find nothing or a casualty who needs urgent medical care - do they then take him to hospital or dial 999? That is the best option - if they can't land, they can dial 999 and divert ground resources who are searching in the right area to a wild goose chase in the wrong one. Please tell me how any of this is productive.
Worst of all they could break the first rule of first aid and become casualties themselves either from CFIT or whiteout on landing and need rescuing - again diverting vital resources from their original task.
The attitude that doing something is better than nothing is often flawed and only goes to salve the conscience of the person who undertakes such actions. I maintain my position that letting the police get on with their job was and is the best course of action but those like ironchefllay clearly know best so I will leave him to the moral high ground.
Shy -your caveats about involvement are unlikely to be met - even if there is no police or SAR heli aircraft to conflict with, is the 'unofficial' helicopter going to be flown safely in poor weather whilst conducting any form of meaningful search?
If it is single pilot there is no way that any searching can be conducted without seriously compromising lookout - if there is more than one crew it helps but if they see something, what do they do? They could land, if conditions permit and either find nothing or a casualty who needs urgent medical care - do they then take him to hospital or dial 999? That is the best option - if they can't land, they can dial 999 and divert ground resources who are searching in the right area to a wild goose chase in the wrong one. Please tell me how any of this is productive.
Worst of all they could break the first rule of first aid and become casualties themselves either from CFIT or whiteout on landing and need rescuing - again diverting vital resources from their original task.
The attitude that doing something is better than nothing is often flawed and only goes to salve the conscience of the person who undertakes such actions. I maintain my position that letting the police get on with their job was and is the best course of action but those like ironchefllay clearly know best so I will leave him to the moral high ground.
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Crab, we'll just have to disagree.
As I said, if I was in a position to help, I would have done. Your over-patronising generalisation would include pilots such as myself.
You perhaps fail to understand that just because a pilot isn't sitting in a helicopter with RAF RESCUE or POLICE written on the side, he/she isn't necessarily a knuckle-dragging, incompetent idiot, unable to fly safely or make airmanship decisions without "official" help or guidance. No-one is sanctioning any pilot taking part in unsafe operations, either by flying beyond their experience, flying in met conditions beyond their abilities, failing to take along a second pair of eyes to do the searching, or anything else.
Don't forget it's Class G airspace out there and many civvie pilots have flown in various roles for many years without the advantage of airspace protection, such as an RA(T).
If there is no other asset available, why should any pilot, be it PPL, CPL or ATPL holder, be told by someone not directly involved himself that he should not offer his services? There is nothing to prevent anyone requesting AIS to issue a NOTAM, btw. In this case, ATC would be very keen to offer every assistance possible.
If a member of the public out went out walking in the hills (properly experienced and equipped for the conditions, of course) to look for this unfortunate old fellow and spotted something, such as an item of clothing down a ravine, that warranted further investigation, the police ASU would react and they would undoubtedly be as pleased as anyone to find a misper, at least the unit I ran would have been; even if the news for the family was the worst.
What is the difference to someone doing the same by air? Nowt.
If it was my old man out there, I'd do anything I could to search for him however low the statistical chance of finding him actually was; in the same circumstances you might even do the same. Both my own parents are lying together under the snow on the side of a hill, but at least, having had the advantage of a proper funeral we know exactly which formal plot they occupy.
"Any road up", you'll probably be a civvie one day yourself and then hopefully you'll see the boot on the other foot doesn't necessarily have a hole in it.
In your position, my professional advice would be "Yes, go for it, but please think about it carefully in advance, organise your flight properly, don't push your luck in any way and don't put yourself or others at risk".
As I said, if I was in a position to help, I would have done. Your over-patronising generalisation would include pilots such as myself.
You perhaps fail to understand that just because a pilot isn't sitting in a helicopter with RAF RESCUE or POLICE written on the side, he/she isn't necessarily a knuckle-dragging, incompetent idiot, unable to fly safely or make airmanship decisions without "official" help or guidance. No-one is sanctioning any pilot taking part in unsafe operations, either by flying beyond their experience, flying in met conditions beyond their abilities, failing to take along a second pair of eyes to do the searching, or anything else.
Don't forget it's Class G airspace out there and many civvie pilots have flown in various roles for many years without the advantage of airspace protection, such as an RA(T).
If there is no other asset available, why should any pilot, be it PPL, CPL or ATPL holder, be told by someone not directly involved himself that he should not offer his services? There is nothing to prevent anyone requesting AIS to issue a NOTAM, btw. In this case, ATC would be very keen to offer every assistance possible.
If a member of the public out went out walking in the hills (properly experienced and equipped for the conditions, of course) to look for this unfortunate old fellow and spotted something, such as an item of clothing down a ravine, that warranted further investigation, the police ASU would react and they would undoubtedly be as pleased as anyone to find a misper, at least the unit I ran would have been; even if the news for the family was the worst.
What is the difference to someone doing the same by air? Nowt.
If it was my old man out there, I'd do anything I could to search for him however low the statistical chance of finding him actually was; in the same circumstances you might even do the same. Both my own parents are lying together under the snow on the side of a hill, but at least, having had the advantage of a proper funeral we know exactly which formal plot they occupy.
"Any road up", you'll probably be a civvie one day yourself and then hopefully you'll see the boot on the other foot doesn't necessarily have a hole in it.
In your position, my professional advice would be "Yes, go for it, but please think about it carefully in advance, organise your flight properly, don't push your luck in any way and don't put yourself or others at risk".
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Couldn't webe respectful and keep this relevant to the discussion? That of a missing person and an appeal....
Please, make another thread for your debate - I came to see if there had been any advance on the search however can hardly find any news due to your drivel of bull****.
Please, make another thread for your debate - I came to see if there had been any advance on the search however can hardly find any news due to your drivel of bull****.
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Thanks to you all so far for your inputs good or bad........as for news no news as yet but will post should I hear anything.........