UK's Search and Rescue network to be maintained
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I'm new to this posting business although i did have some first hand experience as a SAR "user" many moons ago so have been reading all the interesting (and passionate ) posts with great interest. As i understand it, there are 2 consortia bidding to take over heli SAR at the 12 bases currently manned by the MCA, RN and RAF. One is Air Knight which is Lockheed Martin, VT Group and British International, the other is the same outfit which is operating at the moment at the 4 MCA Bases. On the face of it, that does seem to give the latter an advantage. Does anyone have any idea of the pros and cons of each bidder? Comments please
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Keeping it in trim
Please be assured no insult of the kind was intended. I too was one of those military SAR guys a million moons ago. It's not the guys at the sharp end I'm getting at, its the MoD bunch.
Think about it for a minute. There you are part of the military machine and your colleagues overseas are crying out for the precious resources you hold captive in home waters. Shouldn't they be deployed where they are most needed? A civvy S92/AW139 cannot do what you guys do in an operational environment but they CAN do what you do here. So why aren't you out there in the front line? We are desperate for helicopters in Afghanistan and you guys can surely lend a hand. Isn't that what you are trained for?
If I have it all wrong please tell me and please let's keep emotional arguments out of it and focus on the arguments about practicalities. I'm willing to listen but from where I stand the facts seem to speak for themselves.
Rgds
G.
Think about it for a minute. There you are part of the military machine and your colleagues overseas are crying out for the precious resources you hold captive in home waters. Shouldn't they be deployed where they are most needed? A civvy S92/AW139 cannot do what you guys do in an operational environment but they CAN do what you do here. So why aren't you out there in the front line? We are desperate for helicopters in Afghanistan and you guys can surely lend a hand. Isn't that what you are trained for?
If I have it all wrong please tell me and please let's keep emotional arguments out of it and focus on the arguments about practicalities. I'm willing to listen but from where I stand the facts seem to speak for themselves.
Rgds
G.
Geoffers - I am sure that the whole of 771 are just desperate to get to the stan along with all the RN Merlins, Lynx and every other helicopter in the UK armed forces. Strangely enough, only those fit for purpose in such an environment have been sent since a non-Carson, non-DAS equipped Sea King is about as much use as tits on a bull over there. Sending SAR Sea Kings or MK 8 Lynx or ASW Merlins clearly isn't the answer or they would be there already.
I rather suspect you spent you military time in war and sea dodging drafts as you are so keen to send everyone else there - or were you just a failed SARboy?
I rather suspect you spent you military time in war and sea dodging drafts as you are so keen to send everyone else there - or were you just a failed SARboy?
Apache for HEMS - Strafe those Survivors!
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Goeffers
Given your post, I accept that you did not intend to cause offense, but as you say yourself, lets keep the emotion out of it, so please think a little about how your comments can appear to others.
As to the rest, I refer you to the last 2 paras of my previous post, I have been out of the military and SAR for several years. All I would like to see is a properly run, equipped and funded, national helicopter SAR service, that maintains, or enhances, the current level of coverage and capability, NOT a situation which is spun or twisted to make it look that way, when it isn't, whoever is providing it.
If it is correctly resourced, the organisation running it is almost irrelevent. Other countries run successful services that are either provided by the civil sector, the military, or a combination. We found money for banks, you would hope that someone would feel that this is a priority.
As to Afganistan, yes the crews would probably be useful, after some pre-deployment training, the aircraft? - if my memory serves, the dear old HAR3 is not, in any way, equipped for the task.
Apparently we could have had rather a lot of BlackHawks about a year or so ago. All enquiries about where that all went wrong should be addressed to Mr G Brown, Chief Miser to the MoD, London. Which is probably where all of this is going to come un-glued as well.
Given your post, I accept that you did not intend to cause offense, but as you say yourself, lets keep the emotion out of it, so please think a little about how your comments can appear to others.
As to the rest, I refer you to the last 2 paras of my previous post, I have been out of the military and SAR for several years. All I would like to see is a properly run, equipped and funded, national helicopter SAR service, that maintains, or enhances, the current level of coverage and capability, NOT a situation which is spun or twisted to make it look that way, when it isn't, whoever is providing it.
If it is correctly resourced, the organisation running it is almost irrelevent. Other countries run successful services that are either provided by the civil sector, the military, or a combination. We found money for banks, you would hope that someone would feel that this is a priority.
As to Afganistan, yes the crews would probably be useful, after some pre-deployment training, the aircraft? - if my memory serves, the dear old HAR3 is not, in any way, equipped for the task.
Apparently we could have had rather a lot of BlackHawks about a year or so ago. All enquiries about where that all went wrong should be addressed to Mr G Brown, Chief Miser to the MoD, London. Which is probably where all of this is going to come un-glued as well.
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Point taken
Keeping it in trim - I take the points that both you and CRAB have made about the suitability of equipment. Not being familiar enough with the terrain or the task it's not possible to judge so I'll take your word for it. In the days of 'Confrontation' we stripped out the Wessex 1 and used it in the mountains of Borneo. In the FI we stripped out the Wessex 3 and used it in the mountains of South Georgia. Neither were particularly suited but that's all we had.
Surely their Lordships ARE doing everyhing to help the guys on the ground avoid IEDs. Would more Carson blades help? Would more crews out there mean more flying hours available to the troops? Try explaining to the familes of the fallen that military SAR was more valuable here than it would be in Afghanistan. You may be technically correct but the layperson doesn't necessarily understand your reasoning. Once again I'm not pointing the finger at the guys at the sharp end but at the policy-makers and the politicians.
Thanks for the regular abuse CRAB, it always feels uncomfortable when you don't dish it out. I'm not sure how you would define a 'failed SAR-boy' but my C-in-C's Commendation for one of my early ventures into the world of SAR gives me some hope that I may not be in that category.
When are you due to do a tour out there?
G.
Surely their Lordships ARE doing everyhing to help the guys on the ground avoid IEDs. Would more Carson blades help? Would more crews out there mean more flying hours available to the troops? Try explaining to the familes of the fallen that military SAR was more valuable here than it would be in Afghanistan. You may be technically correct but the layperson doesn't necessarily understand your reasoning. Once again I'm not pointing the finger at the guys at the sharp end but at the policy-makers and the politicians.
Thanks for the regular abuse CRAB, it always feels uncomfortable when you don't dish it out. I'm not sure how you would define a 'failed SAR-boy' but my C-in-C's Commendation for one of my early ventures into the world of SAR gives me some hope that I may not be in that category.
When are you due to do a tour out there?
G.
Last edited by Geoffersincornwall; 11th Nov 2009 at 03:24.
Yes, probably too much of a tired and emotional post from me, apologies for the personal slights - they were unneccessary - just a reaction to the ridiculous notion that sending yellow (and grey) helicopters and crews to the 'stan would help in any way shape or form except to placate the Daily Mail readers who don't understand the difference between types of helicopter and their capabilities.
The Carson Blades are only a small part of the problem since the poor old Gnome engine wasn't built for hot and high either and they are going through them at a massive rate - the idea that the Sea King can be sustained operationally until 2017 for ours and 2020 (or later) for yours ignores the problem of spares.
The Carson Blades are only a small part of the problem since the poor old Gnome engine wasn't built for hot and high either and they are going through them at a massive rate - the idea that the Sea King can be sustained operationally until 2017 for ours and 2020 (or later) for yours ignores the problem of spares.
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CRAB
I guess we haven't quite got to the stage where we throw anything into the frontline but it does give us an interesting perspective at events 65+ years ago when we put 24 year-olds just out of training in Swordfish up against battleships and Hampdens up against Me109s. Maybe these days the powers that be can sense the Daily Mail headines were they to put our boys in breathless Sea Kings and send them into battle. They would probably get a good slagging for wasting more of our precious treasure and asking the guys and gals to do mission impossible with ****e equipment. Where have we heard that before?
Do you remember that Labour minister standing in Afghanistan and pontificating that it would all be over in 6 weeks without a shot being fired. That does give us some indication of committment, understanding and preparedness. Who were his advisors I wonder?
G.
Do you remember that Labour minister standing in Afghanistan and pontificating that it would all be over in 6 weeks without a shot being fired. That does give us some indication of committment, understanding and preparedness. Who were his advisors I wonder?
G.
Geoffers - but then we were at war with a whole country (or countries) and trying to defend the UK from invasion - not quite the same as a nation-building exercise in a foreign country where we are defending the populace against terrorists funded by another state. The only similarity is that the politicians are trying to justify our presence there by saying we are protecting the UK from terrorist attack - given that the last series of terrorist attacks have been as a result of invading another country, that position doesn't stand up to much scrutiny.
Back to SAR and regardless of what is happening in Afghanistan, the fact is that the British people and travellers through and across our territory should expect the highest standards of rescue, not the cheapest. A PFI is not the answer and, as I have got bored with saying, whoever flys the SAR cabs should not be doing it for profit. Time to tell the bean-counters to take a hike.
Back to SAR and regardless of what is happening in Afghanistan, the fact is that the British people and travellers through and across our territory should expect the highest standards of rescue, not the cheapest. A PFI is not the answer and, as I have got bored with saying, whoever flys the SAR cabs should not be doing it for profit. Time to tell the bean-counters to take a hike.
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SAR-H and the future??
Crab, you may just be right about standards dropping somewhat old boy. Rumour has it that the current SAR providers (and maybe hot favourites for SAR-H). No names, but initials sound like C*C, are about to take a paramedic off the street and ‘train’ up to be a winch man. 
All this ‘training’ will happen on a current SAR base with an in house training package using current allocated aircraft training hours.
Cost cutting the extensive (expensive??) route of RAF Valley training and its proven training methods?. What sort of starting salary is on offer I would hate to think! Anyone know?? I have a few old contacts in Eastern Europe keen for work in the UK doing something that doesn’t require too much knowledge/training to replace the aging very experienced but obviously expensive burden to the current and maybe next SAR-H providers.
How do the current crews feel about this proposal and the effect on their terms and conditions not to mention the ‘specialisation’ that was the hallmark of professional helicopter operations. Very sad to hear that the standards are being lowered in these cost cutting moves. Did the hard hit operators ‘Management’, get the Interim contract figures so wrong? Is it true that a ballot for strike over pay/erosion of terms and conditions is being undertaken as I go to print?
DOES NOT BODE WELL FOR SAR-H. Shame really, to see all those years of a job so well done by the Old providers undermined by the ‘Mismanagement’ of the current ones. Does the DFt/MCA/public accept this reduction of training standards with possible casualty, aircrew and aircraft flight safety implications; hmm one does wonder.
Fly Safe you SAR boys & girls. x
All this ‘training’ will happen on a current SAR base with an in house training package using current allocated aircraft training hours.
Cost cutting the extensive (expensive??) route of RAF Valley training and its proven training methods?. What sort of starting salary is on offer I would hate to think! Anyone know?? I have a few old contacts in Eastern Europe keen for work in the UK doing something that doesn’t require too much knowledge/training to replace the aging very experienced but obviously expensive burden to the current and maybe next SAR-H providers.
How do the current crews feel about this proposal and the effect on their terms and conditions not to mention the ‘specialisation’ that was the hallmark of professional helicopter operations. Very sad to hear that the standards are being lowered in these cost cutting moves. Did the hard hit operators ‘Management’, get the Interim contract figures so wrong? Is it true that a ballot for strike over pay/erosion of terms and conditions is being undertaken as I go to print?
DOES NOT BODE WELL FOR SAR-H. Shame really, to see all those years of a job so well done by the Old providers undermined by the ‘Mismanagement’ of the current ones. Does the DFt/MCA/public accept this reduction of training standards with possible casualty, aircrew and aircraft flight safety implications; hmm one does wonder.
Fly Safe you SAR boys & girls. x
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Look outside your box!
Crabette,
'take a paramedic off the street and ‘train’ up to be a winch man'....
Firstly: Paramedics are probably taken out of an ambulance or response car and therefore are quite probably on top of their 'medical' game and far more current / experienced than some Winchmen.
Secondly: in order for a Paramedic to be 'taken off the street' they would most likely not be willing to take a pay cut and therefore probably get paid more than most military winchmen!?!
Thirdly: It has already been done very sucessfully in the organisation you so covertly mention.
If the appropriate screening and testing techniques are applied to applicants from this background you get an extremely high standard of professional who then needs the appropriate training in aviation which can be easily carried out at an operational base over an appropriate period of time.
All this has been done, and I think you are being highly disengenuious to people you may have to work with in the very near future!! (Hopefully)
It is about time some of the 'light blue' began to open their minds to what may well be the way ahead!! You never know, you may even have to sit beside an aircraft commander who is civilian trained.........
'take a paramedic off the street and ‘train’ up to be a winch man'....
Firstly: Paramedics are probably taken out of an ambulance or response car and therefore are quite probably on top of their 'medical' game and far more current / experienced than some Winchmen.
Secondly: in order for a Paramedic to be 'taken off the street' they would most likely not be willing to take a pay cut and therefore probably get paid more than most military winchmen!?!
Thirdly: It has already been done very sucessfully in the organisation you so covertly mention.
If the appropriate screening and testing techniques are applied to applicants from this background you get an extremely high standard of professional who then needs the appropriate training in aviation which can be easily carried out at an operational base over an appropriate period of time.
All this has been done, and I think you are being highly disengenuious to people you may have to work with in the very near future!! (Hopefully)
It is about time some of the 'light blue' began to open their minds to what may well be the way ahead!! You never know, you may even have to sit beside an aircraft commander who is civilian trained.........
Last edited by SirSokky; 11th Nov 2009 at 22:06. Reason: spelling
