UK AAIB October 2009
Avoid imitations
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Biggles, I also doubt the pax were a contributory factor in the accident (I certainly never said they were) but that isn't the point. It appears that they were carried against the terms of the permit to fly. Had those terms been complied with, they would not have been there.
MD600, You appear to be trying to split hairs over definitions of definition. The relevant definition is the one in the CAA Permit to Fly, which is the one the AAIB referred to in the report.
MD600, You appear to be trying to split hairs over definitions of definition. The relevant definition is the one in the CAA Permit to Fly, which is the one the AAIB referred to in the report.
The Gazelle accident highlights a glaring deficiency in the medical examination / licensing scheme for a PPL.
I've contacted the CAA medics at Gatwick on two occasions regarding medical questions. The first was regarding prescription drugs. Yes I could take them, but I would have to ground myself for two weeks incase of side effects(low blood pressure). Should I have my BP monitored by my GP? No. Should I contact them after two weeks? No.
The second was for a hospital stay to free a frozen shoulder. I would need a week of for physio afterwards. Need I check with my AME to check that I was fit to fly afterwards? No.
On both occassions I told them that I was a class 1 and ATPL. On neither occassion did they ask for my name nor my license number.
Last edited by MightyGem; 9th Oct 2009 at 01:24.
...why would anyone want a helicopter that they can't take passengers in?
So why do people buy them? They're much cheaper. When the MOD auctioned off its Gazelles, I believe some were going for well under £120k (Shy will prolly know the exact number) - not bad for a well maintained, 5 seat (and very fast) turbine. Unfortunately however, the insurance companies don't like them and it's virtually impossible for new owners to get insurance - which has driven the prices for all Gazelles down. But that's another story...
TTB
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Are their any recorded successful autos following engine failure in an R22? It's 20 years since I owned one, and now fly a 44, but there have been enough fatal accidents attributed to, for example, carb icing with R22s, to now convince me that the real situation - engine coughs, perhaps not stops immediately, uncorrected yaw, 'is this really happening?' thoughts, waste the very small amount of time you have to get the lever down.
Practice EOLs are so unlike the real event, I'm personally not convinced that any amount of previous training equips you for this emergency in a 22 with so little head inertia. I think the student is far more concerned about what happens at the bottom, when the real issue is at the top where it is deceptively easy to practice entry to auto.
Aside from instructors, who must be on high alert and current if they spend their flying days in a 22, has any PPL ever got a silent 22 down and walked away?
Practice EOLs are so unlike the real event, I'm personally not convinced that any amount of previous training equips you for this emergency in a 22 with so little head inertia. I think the student is far more concerned about what happens at the bottom, when the real issue is at the top where it is deceptively easy to practice entry to auto.
Aside from instructors, who must be on high alert and current if they spend their flying days in a 22, has any PPL ever got a silent 22 down and walked away?
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Ref the Gazelle accident, the real issue here is why did the pilot keep (pretty accurately) to a presumably straight line route that he had planned, rather than simply divert a few miles west, which would have enabled him to keep to much lower ground to the west of Gloucester where the cloud base was quite adequate at 1000ft. He was obviously aware of the lowering cloud base and rising ground, causing him to descend to an unsafe and probably illegal height.
He was clearly being too rigid in his navigation. Mention is made of him having a hand written note of his route, so he had flight planned to an extent. But was it because he was being too inflexible? Are pilots taught enough in training to be prepared to improvise in flight and modify their routing when weather requires?
He was clearly being too rigid in his navigation. Mention is made of him having a hand written note of his route, so he had flight planned to an extent. But was it because he was being too inflexible? Are pilots taught enough in training to be prepared to improvise in flight and modify their routing when weather requires?
Thread Starter
Rotorspeed
I guess none of us will ever really know, but there is a disturbing trend in accidents like this where pilots tend to get on 'the pink line' on the GPS and stay on it. That may be why the AAIB elected to mention it, they can't know what he was thinking but he was tending towards the line on the GPS which took him to where the accident happened.
I am sure the phrase has been coined before but I am doing some research into what I term 'The Dangers of Direct To' and will make the results publicly available when I have something concrete.
Several people have known to six decimal places where they died in the last few years, when there was absolutely no need for them (or their passengers) to do so.
GS
I guess none of us will ever really know, but there is a disturbing trend in accidents like this where pilots tend to get on 'the pink line' on the GPS and stay on it. That may be why the AAIB elected to mention it, they can't know what he was thinking but he was tending towards the line on the GPS which took him to where the accident happened.
I am sure the phrase has been coined before but I am doing some research into what I term 'The Dangers of Direct To' and will make the results publicly available when I have something concrete.
Several people have known to six decimal places where they died in the last few years, when there was absolutely no need for them (or their passengers) to do so.
GS
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VeeAny
Leaving this latest Gazelle tragedy to one side, I agree there is a great potential for the 'DirectTo..itis' you describe. I also believe it could be a growing phenomena given that, as time progresses, fewer pilots ever flew without GPS. The potential for over-reliance on any piece of technology that in every other regard improves navigation, aids safety and reduces workload, is ever present, afterall.
Try, as I have, flying with a pilot who never knew life before GPS and all that moving maps have to offer. Then try switching it off mid sector and asking: "What are you going to do now?" It shouldn't matter to a well prepared person with a plan, or even a map (which sadly also seem to be disappearing at a rate of knots), but see how many start to sweat and mutter excuses about how that never really happens; the first indicator that they don't know where they are, and don't know what comes next.
I think I'm right in saying it is still illegal to go flying without a paper map...at least it was in my day. The other great problem in doing everything on your latest Garmin is that you cannot unbolt the thing from the dash and take it inside to the kitchen table. This is where we all used to plan our flights, on our paper maps, the night before. Now, I see too many pilots planning everything between engine start and pulling collective...and in some cases even later than that. There is then a tendency for other routine flight planning to get left behind...notams, weather, PPR?... you know...the little things
The danger lies in the facts modern GPS is almost too good, and looks and feels like it can do everything for you. Even the ads claim as much. Then add in the human propensity for laziness and we have the first links in the chain that leads to every AAIB report.
Psychologists talk about 'set,' the propensity for humans under stress to stick doggedly to one task, even when it is not a priority and even when it is becoming increasingly irrelevant as the situation deteriorates. The effects of set can also become stronger as stress rises gradually over time, for example: as a pilot becomes steadily more concerned as the weather deteriorates. Rotorspeed has a point in that maybe, just maybe, this pilot was clinging to the GPS's track for the comfort it provided, rather than re-appraising everything and maybe turning toward lower ground, or even home. I'm assuming his viz, cloud base, etc was deteriorating gradually, but you get my point.
Would be interested to see the fruits of your research Vee. Try reading 'The Naked Pilot,' too. It will tell you all about set and the problems it has caused in the cockpit.
Dan
Leaving this latest Gazelle tragedy to one side, I agree there is a great potential for the 'DirectTo..itis' you describe. I also believe it could be a growing phenomena given that, as time progresses, fewer pilots ever flew without GPS. The potential for over-reliance on any piece of technology that in every other regard improves navigation, aids safety and reduces workload, is ever present, afterall.
Try, as I have, flying with a pilot who never knew life before GPS and all that moving maps have to offer. Then try switching it off mid sector and asking: "What are you going to do now?" It shouldn't matter to a well prepared person with a plan, or even a map (which sadly also seem to be disappearing at a rate of knots), but see how many start to sweat and mutter excuses about how that never really happens; the first indicator that they don't know where they are, and don't know what comes next.
I think I'm right in saying it is still illegal to go flying without a paper map...at least it was in my day. The other great problem in doing everything on your latest Garmin is that you cannot unbolt the thing from the dash and take it inside to the kitchen table. This is where we all used to plan our flights, on our paper maps, the night before. Now, I see too many pilots planning everything between engine start and pulling collective...and in some cases even later than that. There is then a tendency for other routine flight planning to get left behind...notams, weather, PPR?... you know...the little things
The danger lies in the facts modern GPS is almost too good, and looks and feels like it can do everything for you. Even the ads claim as much. Then add in the human propensity for laziness and we have the first links in the chain that leads to every AAIB report.Psychologists talk about 'set,' the propensity for humans under stress to stick doggedly to one task, even when it is not a priority and even when it is becoming increasingly irrelevant as the situation deteriorates. The effects of set can also become stronger as stress rises gradually over time, for example: as a pilot becomes steadily more concerned as the weather deteriorates. Rotorspeed has a point in that maybe, just maybe, this pilot was clinging to the GPS's track for the comfort it provided, rather than re-appraising everything and maybe turning toward lower ground, or even home. I'm assuming his viz, cloud base, etc was deteriorating gradually, but you get my point.
Would be interested to see the fruits of your research Vee. Try reading 'The Naked Pilot,' too. It will tell you all about set and the problems it has caused in the cockpit.
Dan
