Question on downwind autorotations
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
From: All over
I agree this is a stupid exercise but not impossible. Before even attemping this you should be able to execute an EOL perfectly without even using the lever to cushion. Its probably best that we drop this discussion
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 803
Likes: 52
From: Pensacola, Florida
Hillerbee is right: This is a maneuver for play/practice/demo only - no real application in the real world. Think: No matter which way the nose is pointed at touchdown, the *rotor* is still doing a downwind auto. Sure, you can flare harder because you don't have to worry about whacking the tailboom, but you still may touchdown with some forward speed...which is actually rearward speed relative to the airframe and skids. Damn, you better be good! I wouldn't try it, but I'd like to watch it done. From afar.
Pilots do like to play. Back in the '70s there was a demo pilot at Enstrom by the name of Mike Meager. At airshows he used to specialize in backward autos to the ground. Estimating the 50 knot attitude is not all that hard - it's about level, either way, right? Another Enstrom guy - a test pilot who later had a column in ROTOR&WING Magazine, whose name I forget (Doug Kott...something like that?) - also wrote about those backward autos to the ground. Says he did 'em too. Balls of steel, those guys.
Pilots do like to play (Part 2): In the 1970s I worked at a charter outfit in NYC that also had a couple of 47s doing spraying. Those spray guys would go out and play sometimes, challenging each other to autorotation contests. They'd do all kinds of crazy stuff: side flares to touchdown and the like, until they scared themselves so badly they'd quit. Hard drinking bunch. Balls of steel, those guys.
Pilots do like to play (Part 3): Then one evening the Assistant Chief Pilot of this outfit arrived in an Astar at the tiny E34th Street Heliport in Manhattan. He came in fast from over the river. Just before coming over the pad he flared. While in the flare, he pedal-turned around. Now he's moving backward, nose pointed at the ground, backing up toward the fence and elevated highway that bordered the property. He got it stopped and set it down perfectly - probably chuckling to himself that it worked out so well (and looked great too), and probably didn't think anyone was watching his little display of hot-doggery. But I was. (If I had tried something like that he probably would've gotten me fired.)
Pilots do like to play (Part 4): When I was young and stupid, I'd take an L-model in a 3 foot hover and get it going backward as fast as I dared (at an airport, obviously). Then I'd chop the throttle and land it. Good fun! I'm older now. Would I ever do such a stunt today? Heck no, just the thought of doing something that stupid scares me sillly. Plus, I'm not that good anymore. Trouble is, I only thought I was back then. Only dumb luck kept me from balling one up, for sure. That, and balls of steel.
Pilots do like to play. Back in the '70s there was a demo pilot at Enstrom by the name of Mike Meager. At airshows he used to specialize in backward autos to the ground. Estimating the 50 knot attitude is not all that hard - it's about level, either way, right? Another Enstrom guy - a test pilot who later had a column in ROTOR&WING Magazine, whose name I forget (Doug Kott...something like that?) - also wrote about those backward autos to the ground. Says he did 'em too. Balls of steel, those guys.
Pilots do like to play (Part 2): In the 1970s I worked at a charter outfit in NYC that also had a couple of 47s doing spraying. Those spray guys would go out and play sometimes, challenging each other to autorotation contests. They'd do all kinds of crazy stuff: side flares to touchdown and the like, until they scared themselves so badly they'd quit. Hard drinking bunch. Balls of steel, those guys.
Pilots do like to play (Part 3): Then one evening the Assistant Chief Pilot of this outfit arrived in an Astar at the tiny E34th Street Heliport in Manhattan. He came in fast from over the river. Just before coming over the pad he flared. While in the flare, he pedal-turned around. Now he's moving backward, nose pointed at the ground, backing up toward the fence and elevated highway that bordered the property. He got it stopped and set it down perfectly - probably chuckling to himself that it worked out so well (and looked great too), and probably didn't think anyone was watching his little display of hot-doggery. But I was. (If I had tried something like that he probably would've gotten me fired.)
Pilots do like to play (Part 4): When I was young and stupid, I'd take an L-model in a 3 foot hover and get it going backward as fast as I dared (at an airport, obviously). Then I'd chop the throttle and land it. Good fun! I'm older now. Would I ever do such a stunt today? Heck no, just the thought of doing something that stupid scares me sillly. Plus, I'm not that good anymore. Trouble is, I only thought I was back then. Only dumb luck kept me from balling one up, for sure. That, and balls of steel.
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 326
Likes: 2
From: Florida/Sandbox/UK
Holybejaysus
"Holybejaysus!!!" That would probably be screamed in the cockpit several times whilst perfecting such a technique.
The pilot's sanity and the aircraft owner's insurance really ought to be scrutinised before stuff like this is pracised. I feel certain your friend is having you on, or perhaps someone was successful in having him on.
Either way, don't part with beer unless he shows you the video.
The pilot's sanity and the aircraft owner's insurance really ought to be scrutinised before stuff like this is pracised. I feel certain your friend is having you on, or perhaps someone was successful in having him on.
Either way, don't part with beer unless he shows you the video.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
From: ireland
"Holybejaysus!!!" That would probably be screamed in the cockpit several times whilst perfecting such a technique.
The pilot's sanity and the aircraft owner's insurance really ought to be scrutinised before stuff like this is pracised. I feel certain your friend is having you on, or perhaps someone was successful in having him on.
Either way, don't part with beer unless he shows you the video.
The pilot's sanity and the aircraft owner's insurance really ought to be scrutinised before stuff like this is pracised. I feel certain your friend is having you on, or perhaps someone was successful in having him on.
Either way, don't part with beer unless he shows you the video.
Yeah I'm pretty sure he was having me on/talking through his alpha sierra sierra....
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
From: The land of the cranberry
Definitely sounds interesting but I'll stay away from it too and leave comments when the accident is posted somewhere.
As for the manuever being pacticed in US schools, I dont think so. I'm a JAA instructor over here in the US and we do different types of autos (max range, range, normal, constant attitude, low speed, etc) and downwind quickstops but thats it.
Looking forward to seeing the video!!
As for the manuever being pacticed in US schools, I dont think so. I'm a JAA instructor over here in the US and we do different types of autos (max range, range, normal, constant attitude, low speed, etc) and downwind quickstops but thats it.
Looking forward to seeing the video!!
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 673
Likes: 1
From: On the green bit near the blue wobbly stuff
I have seen a rearwards running landing following an autorotation. It was in the simulator, and not intentional (the tail rotor drive failure played a part in the backwards bit). It didnt crash, but that was because it was hugely flukey - I have seen dozens that did crash. I reckon to perfect the manoeuvre, you would probably need to write off a few dozen helicopters first!
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 217
Likes: 0
From: USA
Unless you fly quite high, you will be doing your auto to whatever is in your immediate line of sight when the engine quites. For the 300 to 700 foot crowd, the average helicopter pilot will be lucky to get everything all gathered up and into a steady state by the time you are ready to flare. The last thing on your mind will be the stupid ideas that some guy dreamed up for one specific circumstance and has no sane way of proving valid. You would be better off concentrating on getting your straight-in autos respectable (that means no torque/temp spike when you roll the throttle up in the flare) or better yet all the way to touchdown with very little need for massive collective pull at the bottom. Then practice some 180 autos just for times you have a favorable landing area or favoring winds fromteh tail AND you have enough altitude to accomplish the turn.
Engine failures are called an emergency for a reason, why complicate it?
Engine failures are called an emergency for a reason, why complicate it?
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 217
Likes: 0
From: USA
When flying a simulator, remember that that machine is running off of lines of code, as entered by a computer programmer that was relayed by a team of "technical experts" who may or may not have ever experienced the conditions the computer is using to give you your final product. It is called simulation, not real flying. I have seen lots of guys teaching some pretty wild ideas that will work every time in the sim- in real life, who knows? Given parameters in the sim will always yield the same results, it is a computer program not real world. Switch functions should be correct every time though.
Last edited by mfriskel; 2nd October 2009 at 16:37.
Avoid imitations
Joined: Nov 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 1,083
From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Well said, Mfriskel. Anything other than actual flight tested and recorded data is set to give what is known as an "off model" result (i.e. best guess) by the programmer.
I used to fly my fixed wing aerobatic display sequence in the Puma simulator; if I'd tried it in a real Puma (which I also used to display) I'd be dead at first attempt.
Having said that, sometimes the 'sim' used to indicate a crash when it would not happen for real. We got the programmer to come in and alter the landing limits to prevent that from happening as it upset the students.
I used to fly my fixed wing aerobatic display sequence in the Puma simulator; if I'd tried it in a real Puma (which I also used to display) I'd be dead at first attempt.
Having said that, sometimes the 'sim' used to indicate a crash when it would not happen for real. We got the programmer to come in and alter the landing limits to prevent that from happening as it upset the students.
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 509
Likes: 0
From: Iceland
This triggers to mind an old story.
There I was, sitting in my 300 at 15.000 feet in a backwards spiralling auto, with a cigar in mouth, a sandwich in hand and pouring myself a cup of coffe.
Since I wasn't all that busy, I decided to pop things up a little and did a few loops just to loose altitude faster since I was getting late for my beer and war story night out with the boys and girls were waiting for their guided tour of the town and......
There I was, sitting in my 300 at 15.000 feet in a backwards spiralling auto, with a cigar in mouth, a sandwich in hand and pouring myself a cup of coffe.
Since I wasn't all that busy, I decided to pop things up a little and did a few loops just to loose altitude faster since I was getting late for my beer and war story night out with the boys and girls were waiting for their guided tour of the town and......
Hovering AND talking
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 5,711
Likes: 1
From: Propping up bars in the Lands of D H Lawrence and Bishop Bonner
Hey Heli-Ice, you lived to tell the tale ... bet you're still dining out on that story eh?
Now .... could you use the aircraft again ?
Cheers
Whirls
Now .... could you use the aircraft again ?
Cheers
Whirls
Hovering AND talking
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 5,711
Likes: 1
From: Propping up bars in the Lands of D H Lawrence and Bishop Bonner
Do I stand a change with you???
However, I know how to get coffee stains out of upholstery so, in return, will show me that maneouvre? While I sit in the bar watching from a distance with a gin and tonic in my hand??
Cheers
Whirls