MoD decides to refit Pumas instead of replacing them
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MoD decides to refit Pumas instead of replacing them
Just spotted this on The Register (MoD pays quadruple in money + blood for Afghan helicopters ? The Register):
Is this an accurate reflection of reality? Would buying US-made Blackhawks be as much of a better option as the author implies here? Or are there other factors at play?
MoD pays quadruple in money + blood for Afghan helicopters
'Our troops. We backstab them to the hilt' By Lewis Page
Comment So the die is cast. In yet another masterly procurement move, the UK Ministry of Defence has decided to spend hundreds of millions of pounds upgrading and restoring its aged Puma helicopters - which were due to retire next year - for service in Afghanistan. This will cost more than buying a fleet of brand new choppers.
Flight International reports today that the MoD has finally got round to signing its planned £300m ($479m) deal which will see "at least 28" of the RAF's 33 operational Pumas fitted with new, more powerful engines and upgraded cockpit avionics. The aged whirlybirds, which came into service in 1971, were to have been finally retired next year. The new upgrade package is expected to postpone their demise by ten years, and to give the rickety old birds enough power to operate in the tough "hot and high" conditions found in Afghanistan, where helicopters struggle to lift useful loads. This is an unbelievably bad bargain for the UK's troops and taxpayers. Each refurbished Puma will cost $17m or thereabouts, and will last approximately ten years. Pumas can carry up to 16 troops or "two tonnes" of stuff according to the RAF.
Consider by contrast the Blackhawk from US maker Sikorsky. You can buy these with spares, support and training for $15m at the moment. They can carry 14 troops, about the same as a Puma, and have much superior lifting performance - 2.6 tonnes of stuff as opposed to 2 for the Puma. Various models of Blackhawk, unsurprisingly, can and do already operate in Afghanistan - providing vital medevac services to British troops, among other things.
The Blackhawk isn't just cheaper to buy and significantly more powerful. It's also part of a huge worldwide fleet, meaning it would offer lower running costs too. And it isn't a flying antique that might last another ten years if you're lucky - Blackhawks bought now would keep flying at least another 30 years, probably much longer if the history of the Puma is anything to go by.
And the Pumas won't be flying in Afghanistan for at least another two years - whereas new Blackhawks could have been there for at least a year by now. Sikorsky have offered repeatedly to supply choppers to deal with the British armed forces' embarrassing lack of them. If we'd bought in 2007 when the pound was strong, Sikorsky were offering 60 brand-new birds plus training for £480m. As it is we'll get 30 antiques for £300m, paying at least four times as much for every flying hour we obtain. And waiting half a decade to get them, too.
Yet again, pumping cash into lame-duck British industry which can't survive without constant taxpayer support has been deemed more important than saving the lives of British troops fighting and dying in Afghanistan - and more important than any chance of a decent military outcome for the UK there. The fix has been in on the Puma upgrade deal for some time, but until today it was possible to hope it wouldn't happen.
Eurocopter UK, Thales UK, Qinetiq and all the rest - all the British (and some non-British) firms where the champagne corks will be popping tonight following the signing of this deal - you should be ashamed. ®
'Our troops. We backstab them to the hilt' By Lewis Page
Comment So the die is cast. In yet another masterly procurement move, the UK Ministry of Defence has decided to spend hundreds of millions of pounds upgrading and restoring its aged Puma helicopters - which were due to retire next year - for service in Afghanistan. This will cost more than buying a fleet of brand new choppers.
Flight International reports today that the MoD has finally got round to signing its planned £300m ($479m) deal which will see "at least 28" of the RAF's 33 operational Pumas fitted with new, more powerful engines and upgraded cockpit avionics. The aged whirlybirds, which came into service in 1971, were to have been finally retired next year. The new upgrade package is expected to postpone their demise by ten years, and to give the rickety old birds enough power to operate in the tough "hot and high" conditions found in Afghanistan, where helicopters struggle to lift useful loads. This is an unbelievably bad bargain for the UK's troops and taxpayers. Each refurbished Puma will cost $17m or thereabouts, and will last approximately ten years. Pumas can carry up to 16 troops or "two tonnes" of stuff according to the RAF.
Consider by contrast the Blackhawk from US maker Sikorsky. You can buy these with spares, support and training for $15m at the moment. They can carry 14 troops, about the same as a Puma, and have much superior lifting performance - 2.6 tonnes of stuff as opposed to 2 for the Puma. Various models of Blackhawk, unsurprisingly, can and do already operate in Afghanistan - providing vital medevac services to British troops, among other things.
The Blackhawk isn't just cheaper to buy and significantly more powerful. It's also part of a huge worldwide fleet, meaning it would offer lower running costs too. And it isn't a flying antique that might last another ten years if you're lucky - Blackhawks bought now would keep flying at least another 30 years, probably much longer if the history of the Puma is anything to go by.
And the Pumas won't be flying in Afghanistan for at least another two years - whereas new Blackhawks could have been there for at least a year by now. Sikorsky have offered repeatedly to supply choppers to deal with the British armed forces' embarrassing lack of them. If we'd bought in 2007 when the pound was strong, Sikorsky were offering 60 brand-new birds plus training for £480m. As it is we'll get 30 antiques for £300m, paying at least four times as much for every flying hour we obtain. And waiting half a decade to get them, too.
Yet again, pumping cash into lame-duck British industry which can't survive without constant taxpayer support has been deemed more important than saving the lives of British troops fighting and dying in Afghanistan - and more important than any chance of a decent military outcome for the UK there. The fix has been in on the Puma upgrade deal for some time, but until today it was possible to hope it wouldn't happen.
Eurocopter UK, Thales UK, Qinetiq and all the rest - all the British (and some non-British) firms where the champagne corks will be popping tonight following the signing of this deal - you should be ashamed. ®
Commonsense certainly is not involved in such a decision!
Perhaps it is a fear that British Pilots would not be able to figure out which pedal to push if they made a change to correct way turnng rotors!
Perhaps John Dixson might provide us some idea of how long it would take for SA to pump out 30-40 Blackhawks if the contract was signed today?
Perhaps it is a fear that British Pilots would not be able to figure out which pedal to push if they made a change to correct way turnng rotors!
Perhaps John Dixson might provide us some idea of how long it would take for SA to pump out 30-40 Blackhawks if the contract was signed today?
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Same old Same old :
Just watch out in a few years how many of those decision makers in the MOD turn up on the board of the beneficiaries of the contract
, to join there old mates already there having left the procurment department of the MOD having recommended the AEW Nimrod
Mav
Just watch out in a few years how many of those decision makers in the MOD turn up on the board of the beneficiaries of the contract
, to join there old mates already there having left the procurment department of the MOD having recommended the AEW Nimrod Mav
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The article references a payload of 2.6 tonne for the Blackhawk and 2 tonne for the Puma. I would be curious to see what the delta is at, say 10,000 feet. Sikorsky has never been known for building super high altitude machines but the French seem to do so a bit more. I admit I don't know either machince very well so I stand to be corrected. Maybe the new UH-60M blades make a big difference.
Interesting
Max
Interesting
Max
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Prior discussion on the topic over at Military Aircrew:
Sikorsky outing the MoD.html
U.K. May Drop Helo Life Extension, Advance Medium-Lift Craft.html
UH-60M would be too much of a threat to Merlin and FL to ever happen (and would, I guess, also require a new logistics chain).
I/C
Sikorsky outing the MoD.html
U.K. May Drop Helo Life Extension, Advance Medium-Lift Craft.html
UH-60M would be too much of a threat to Merlin and FL to ever happen (and would, I guess, also require a new logistics chain).
I/C
Some more details....
LONDON - Britain's Ministry of Defence has signed a deal with Eurocopter UK to extend the life of up to 30 Pumas operated by the Joint Helicopter Command. The contract is valued at around 300 million pounds ($476 million) and includes new engines, avionics and communications equipment.
The announcement comes days after the MoD announced a 408 million-pound program to upgrade its entire fleet of Boeing-built Chinook medium-lift helicopters with more powerful engines and avionics.
The Labour administration here has come under sustained criticism for providing insufficient helicopter resources for British troops fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq. Over the last couple of years its response has included the purchase of more AgustaWestland Merlin helicopters and the update of Lynx and Sea King rotorcraft destined for operations in Afghanistan.
The deal with Eurocopter will see 28 Pumas updated with an option for a further two airframes to be included in the program. The work will extend the out of service date of the modified rotorcraft from 2012 to 2022. By that time it is hoped the proposed Future Medium Helicopter program will have started feeding new machines into service with the Joint Helicopter Command.
Some 34 Pumas are currently capable of being deployed, although they are not at theatre entry standards for use in Afghanistan. Aircraft from the 34 not modified will eventually be used for spares. The remainder of the fleet's 43 helicopters are being scrapped, said a ministry spokesman.
Deliveries are due to start in 2011 with the first 14 helicopters due to enter service by the end of 2012. Aircraft modification is being undertaken in Romania. The MoD spokesman said the upgrade work being done by Eurocopter's Romanian subsidiary represented 10 percent of the contract value.
The largest single slice of the work, about 60 percent by value, goes to France. Much of that results from a 45 million-pound deal with Turbomeca for new engines.
Defence procurement minister Quentin Davis said the upgrades would allow the Puma "to meet the requirements of battlefield commanders to transport troops in the hottest and most demanding conditions that we encounter in Afghanistan. The upgrades amount to a significant capability enhancement for the aircraft."
The announcement comes days after the MoD announced a 408 million-pound program to upgrade its entire fleet of Boeing-built Chinook medium-lift helicopters with more powerful engines and avionics.
The Labour administration here has come under sustained criticism for providing insufficient helicopter resources for British troops fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq. Over the last couple of years its response has included the purchase of more AgustaWestland Merlin helicopters and the update of Lynx and Sea King rotorcraft destined for operations in Afghanistan.
The deal with Eurocopter will see 28 Pumas updated with an option for a further two airframes to be included in the program. The work will extend the out of service date of the modified rotorcraft from 2012 to 2022. By that time it is hoped the proposed Future Medium Helicopter program will have started feeding new machines into service with the Joint Helicopter Command.
Some 34 Pumas are currently capable of being deployed, although they are not at theatre entry standards for use in Afghanistan. Aircraft from the 34 not modified will eventually be used for spares. The remainder of the fleet's 43 helicopters are being scrapped, said a ministry spokesman.
Deliveries are due to start in 2011 with the first 14 helicopters due to enter service by the end of 2012. Aircraft modification is being undertaken in Romania. The MoD spokesman said the upgrade work being done by Eurocopter's Romanian subsidiary represented 10 percent of the contract value.
The largest single slice of the work, about 60 percent by value, goes to France. Much of that results from a 45 million-pound deal with Turbomeca for new engines.
Defence procurement minister Quentin Davis said the upgrades would allow the Puma "to meet the requirements of battlefield commanders to transport troops in the hottest and most demanding conditions that we encounter in Afghanistan. The upgrades amount to a significant capability enhancement for the aircraft."
As noted, this is old news now and just like Flynx there’s no going back.
My guess is you’d be hard pushed to find anyone in the MoD who thinks Puma LEP is money well spent. ‘Spend a little to save a lot’ I suspect and having spent £300m+ on this upgrade, I don’t see the Puma fleet being retired in 2022 after only 8 to 10-years of post LEP service. More like 2027 at which point hopefully even the Government will agree that these 56-year old platforms should finally be put out to pasture.
A narrow footprint, high C of G and a tricycle undercarriage with a nose wheel will no doubt add to the thrill of putting down in brown-out conditions on uneven terrain...... Well done Bob.
My guess is you’d be hard pushed to find anyone in the MoD who thinks Puma LEP is money well spent. ‘Spend a little to save a lot’ I suspect and having spent £300m+ on this upgrade, I don’t see the Puma fleet being retired in 2022 after only 8 to 10-years of post LEP service. More like 2027 at which point hopefully even the Government will agree that these 56-year old platforms should finally be put out to pasture.
A narrow footprint, high C of G and a tricycle undercarriage with a nose wheel will no doubt add to the thrill of putting down in brown-out conditions on uneven terrain...... Well done Bob.
A narrow footprint, high C of G and a tricycle undercarriage with a nose wheel will no doubt add to the thrill of putting down in brown-out conditions on uneven terrain...... Well done Bob.
SA Blackhawk Delivery Time
SAS, the link in Ian's note below yours provides the answer as to what SA said they would commit to earlier this year. I did check with a friend who said that SA are still working on this possibility, and that ( surprise ) there are some politics involved. I have some history of working with UK MOD and Westland, and while at both institutions there are very intelligent technical staffs, and terrific people to work with, it is impossible to forecast the outcome of a particular situation.
Thanks,
John Dixson
Thanks,
John Dixson
First one arrived yesterday.....
......quick get the 'arrival' pictures taken then strip the parts off it to have them sent around the world for reconditioning.
£300mill to employ a 'broker'
great deal.
£300mill to employ a 'broker'
great deal.
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Stupidity of the highest order!!
Another outstanding move by our leaders!
So lets upgrade out of date aircraft rather than trying to reduce the type count...
Blackhawk would never be an option as our friends at QQ would never support an RTS as the aircraft are not designed to DEF-STAN..(Chinnok!!)
A solution would have been to ask AW to continue building the Mk3a replacement aircraft for Denmark instead of punting the work to Romania...good job there is not a recession on or a war in that case!!
So lets upgrade out of date aircraft rather than trying to reduce the type count...
Blackhawk would never be an option as our friends at QQ would never support an RTS as the aircraft are not designed to DEF-STAN..(Chinnok!!)
A solution would have been to ask AW to continue building the Mk3a replacement aircraft for Denmark instead of punting the work to Romania...good job there is not a recession on or a war in that case!!
Tightgit
They probably decided not to change aircraft because they've seen the reaction from the air force when somebody decided to replace SAR sea kings with something built this century
It might just be me, but I think its quite a good idea ...........
As an airframe, it does what the RAF want. Like the BAe Hawk, a great aircraft that does the job. With new avionics and uprated engines (and presumably transmission) this could be a better aircraft (for the job) than the latest 21st century technology that struggles to cope in hot, dusty conditions - The likes of which they seem destined to be used in for the foreseeable future.
I do think a 332L would be a better airframe and a progressive step towards the 21st Century, even if 20 years short. At least it doesn't seem to be a decision based on the cheapest option !!
As an airframe, it does what the RAF want. Like the BAe Hawk, a great aircraft that does the job. With new avionics and uprated engines (and presumably transmission) this could be a better aircraft (for the job) than the latest 21st century technology that struggles to cope in hot, dusty conditions - The likes of which they seem destined to be used in for the foreseeable future.
I do think a 332L would be a better airframe and a progressive step towards the 21st Century, even if 20 years short. At least it doesn't seem to be a decision based on the cheapest option !!
Last edited by Special 25; 2nd Oct 2009 at 18:41.
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I bet:
Uprated engines, avionics and comms = Good
No mention of uprated transmission = bad
Inceasing basic weight + no increase in performance = less capability
Another feather in the cap for MOD Procurement. I bet they sleep well at night raping the taxpayer everyday!
Uprated engines, avionics and comms = Good
No mention of uprated transmission = bad
Inceasing basic weight + no increase in performance = less capability
Another feather in the cap for MOD Procurement. I bet they sleep well at night raping the taxpayer everyday!
I think its quite a good idea
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Delete as appropriate in the following fictional press release that could appear:
The decision to upgrade the nimrod/puma fleet was taken based on expected deliverables from Industry. As the nimrod/puma upgrade has taken place, extensive and unexpected fatigue and compatability issues have arisen which have significantly increased the cost of the nimrod/puma upgrade. MOD remains confident that the nimrod/puma upgrade, despite being 2/3/4/5 years late and 20%/50%/100% over cost remains value for money.....
But of course, this would never happen....
The decision to upgrade the nimrod/puma fleet was taken based on expected deliverables from Industry. As the nimrod/puma upgrade has taken place, extensive and unexpected fatigue and compatability issues have arisen which have significantly increased the cost of the nimrod/puma upgrade. MOD remains confident that the nimrod/puma upgrade, despite being 2/3/4/5 years late and 20%/50%/100% over cost remains value for money.....
But of course, this would never happen....
