Dodgy NOTAMs
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Dodgy NOTAMs
Just spent another fabulous weekend at Newbury Show. It’s always the third weekend in September and the headline display is always at around 1230 – 1300 and 1630 - 1700 each day be it the Royal Horse Artillery to the White Helmets to, this year, the Royal Navy Parachute Display Team.
This lunchtime’s display involved the first of the parachutists jumping out at about 1245, then the second, then the third … I then saw, I think, an A109 flying overhead whilst the fourth, fifth and sixth chaps were lepping out of their aircraft.
It looked close. Now below is the NOTAM – the timings are totally wrong so I’m not pointing any fingers. The 109 looked high enough to land clear and otherwise wouldn’t have caused any comment.
Q) EGTT/QWPLW/IV/M/W/000/055/5127N00118W002
FROM: 09/09/20 10:45 TO: 09/09/20 15:15
E) PJE WI 2NM RADIUS 5127N 00118W (NEWBURY, BERKSHIRE). CTC 07973
830853. AUS 09-09-0571/AS4
LOWER: SFC
UPPER: 5400FT AMSL
SCHEDULE: 1045-1115 1445-1515
H4265/09
Q) EGTT/QWALW/IV/M/W/000/025/5127N00118W002
FROM: 09/09/19 13:25 TO: 09/09/20 12:15
E) FLYING DISPLAY BY SEAFIRE ACFT WI 2NM RADIUS 5127N 00118W (NEWBURY,
BERKSHIRE) AUS 09-09-0636/AS3
LOWER: SFC
UPPER: 2400FT AMSL
SCHEDULE: 19 1325-1345, 20 1155-1215
H4343/09
So where would a pilot stand “legally” in such a circumstance? As far as I can tell, he acted within all notifications given but it could have been nasty. In the second NOTAM above, they have completely omitted the Swordfish flypast at about 1730.
Is it the responsibility of the show organizers to put out the NOTAM, or the owners/operators of the aircraft?
Cheers
Whirls
This lunchtime’s display involved the first of the parachutists jumping out at about 1245, then the second, then the third … I then saw, I think, an A109 flying overhead whilst the fourth, fifth and sixth chaps were lepping out of their aircraft.
It looked close. Now below is the NOTAM – the timings are totally wrong so I’m not pointing any fingers. The 109 looked high enough to land clear and otherwise wouldn’t have caused any comment.
Q) EGTT/QWPLW/IV/M/W/000/055/5127N00118W002
FROM: 09/09/20 10:45 TO: 09/09/20 15:15
E) PJE WI 2NM RADIUS 5127N 00118W (NEWBURY, BERKSHIRE). CTC 07973
830853. AUS 09-09-0571/AS4
LOWER: SFC
UPPER: 5400FT AMSL
SCHEDULE: 1045-1115 1445-1515
H4265/09
Q) EGTT/QWALW/IV/M/W/000/025/5127N00118W002
FROM: 09/09/19 13:25 TO: 09/09/20 12:15
E) FLYING DISPLAY BY SEAFIRE ACFT WI 2NM RADIUS 5127N 00118W (NEWBURY,
BERKSHIRE) AUS 09-09-0636/AS3
LOWER: SFC
UPPER: 2400FT AMSL
SCHEDULE: 19 1325-1345, 20 1155-1215
H4343/09
So where would a pilot stand “legally” in such a circumstance? As far as I can tell, he acted within all notifications given but it could have been nasty. In the second NOTAM above, they have completely omitted the Swordfish flypast at about 1730.
Is it the responsibility of the show organizers to put out the NOTAM, or the owners/operators of the aircraft?
Cheers
Whirls
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It's Class G, so effectively a free for all, see and be seen.
However, I think common sense says they should have NOTAM'd the other activities with accurate times.
However, I think common sense says they should have NOTAM'd the other activities with accurate times.
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It looks like someone had problems with their sums converting BST to ZULU! You would have thought that whoever put in the NOTAM, the parachute team and their pilot would have checked it, being that it was very much in their interest.
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Sunday 20th Sept. I went through 55 pages of NOTAMS (out of 58) to find the one about the Spitfire/Typhoon flypast over central London, and then missed the one about the Lancaster in Warwickshire, luckily I saw the aircraft and avoided.
The NOTAM system is far too complex and really needs to be better organised so that all Red Arrows/BBMF transits and displays should be grouped together along with all other display info, NAV warnings etc, and then all the stuff about stand closures at LHR.
The Newbury show NOTAM was also on pge 55 and covered two items, the first one covered the parachuting, but didn't say so, the second covered the Seafire display.
The show organisors are are supposed to inform the authorities of all items and then AIS will sort out the NOTAM accordingly.
The poor aviator then has to work out how to get onto the NOTAM site and fight his way through all the c***. Its a wonder to me that there aren't more infringements of display airspace.
The NOTAM system is far too complex and really needs to be better organised so that all Red Arrows/BBMF transits and displays should be grouped together along with all other display info, NAV warnings etc, and then all the stuff about stand closures at LHR.
The Newbury show NOTAM was also on pge 55 and covered two items, the first one covered the parachuting, but didn't say so, the second covered the Seafire display.
The show organisors are are supposed to inform the authorities of all items and then AIS will sort out the NOTAM accordingly.
The poor aviator then has to work out how to get onto the NOTAM site and fight his way through all the c***. Its a wonder to me that there aren't more infringements of display airspace.
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Couldn't agree more - talk about a user unfriendly system.
Great for airfields etc. who want to cover themselves, but a joke for reading through and disseminating relevant info.
Great for airfields etc. who want to cover themselves, but a joke for reading through and disseminating relevant info.
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Sunday 20th Sept. I went through 55 pages of NOTAMS (out of 58) to find the one about the Spitfire/Typhoon flypast over central London, and then missed the one about the Lancaster in Warwickshire, luckily I saw the aircraft and avoided.
Hovering AND talking
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Even if GMT/BST had been confused by plus or minus one hour, the timings were still inaccurate. There was both a parachute jump and Seafire/Swordfish flypast on each day, around about 1230-1330 BST and 1630 - 1730 BST.
The massed ascent of hot air balloons has been NOTAMed in the past but not this weekend; mind you, none of them could get it up anyway
.
There is some software/website called Notamplot which I believe transposes the NOTAMs onto a map of the British Isles - may help some of you.
As a Life Member of the Society, maybe I'll suggest for future events they'll need an Aviation Committee - with a membership of one.
Cheers
Whirls
The massed ascent of hot air balloons has been NOTAMed in the past but not this weekend; mind you, none of them could get it up anyway
.There is some software/website called Notamplot which I believe transposes the NOTAMs onto a map of the British Isles - may help some of you.
As a Life Member of the Society, maybe I'll suggest for future events they'll need an Aviation Committee - with a membership of one.
Cheers
Whirls
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I agree its not user friendly, however try the point brief section its quite useful.
It needs a map just like Notamplot (though I appreciate that is an unofficial website its so easy to use)
It needs a map just like Notamplot (though I appreciate that is an unofficial website its so easy to use)
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French SIA website works very nicely for the UK and kindly, it is translated into English,
SIA - La référence en information aéronautique
SIA - La référence en information aéronautique
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This Norwegian site also works for most FIR´s and aerodromes.
https://www.ippc.no/ippc/aerodromes.jsp
https://www.ippc.no/ippc/aerodromes.jsp
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There are various "other" websites and software that purports to select NOTAMs. Avbrief is one that I have personally used and there are others that are linked directly into semi-automated flight planning processes.
People have their personal preferences. I and others that I know prefer some of the non-NATS sites presentations and their improved ability to select RELEVANT Notams. On PPRUNE we did have a go about the new UK AIS site, as I recall. IMHO it had not improved much - we have just got used to it.
However, at the Board of Inquiry, after the event it may be better to say that you sought your information from THE official AIS site. Over the years, I have noticed missing NOTAMs and activity that should have been NOTAMed but wasn't.
Perhaps we should ask Mr Rumsfeld about "knowns" and "unknowns"
People have their personal preferences. I and others that I know prefer some of the non-NATS sites presentations and their improved ability to select RELEVANT Notams. On PPRUNE we did have a go about the new UK AIS site, as I recall. IMHO it had not improved much - we have just got used to it.
However, at the Board of Inquiry, after the event it may be better to say that you sought your information from THE official AIS site. Over the years, I have noticed missing NOTAMs and activity that should have been NOTAMed but wasn't.
Perhaps we should ask Mr Rumsfeld about "knowns" and "unknowns"
