What would be the best to do... R44 or B412?
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2007
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From: AGL in Brazil
What would be the best to do... R44 or B412?
Hey everyone,
Just a quick question in order to bright it up a little bit a blurry mind... A low hour pilot, recently out of school has just asked me a question that I would like to share with you guys, especially because I was not quite sure what to answer him. He has been offered to opportunities... (Many people would love to have his problem...
).
The first one is to work in a very small company, doing a Power Line contract in a R44, flying around 80 hours a month, which would give him lots of hours in a years’ time and finally give him the so much required 1000 hours or more to do other jobs around the world.
Now the other offer, is to work in the Fire Fighting campaign, the company is willing to give him the Type rate on the B212/412 but he would build up, at most, 150 hours a year, since fire fighting copters here do not fly that often... I told him that the second option is best, since I am also doing fire fighting and the hour we fly is twin-engine and this would be best for his future (it will take longer, but better quality hour, right?)
No big deal but ideas are always welcome
Thanks
Just a quick question in order to bright it up a little bit a blurry mind... A low hour pilot, recently out of school has just asked me a question that I would like to share with you guys, especially because I was not quite sure what to answer him. He has been offered to opportunities... (Many people would love to have his problem...
). The first one is to work in a very small company, doing a Power Line contract in a R44, flying around 80 hours a month, which would give him lots of hours in a years’ time and finally give him the so much required 1000 hours or more to do other jobs around the world.
Now the other offer, is to work in the Fire Fighting campaign, the company is willing to give him the Type rate on the B212/412 but he would build up, at most, 150 hours a year, since fire fighting copters here do not fly that often... I told him that the second option is best, since I am also doing fire fighting and the hour we fly is twin-engine and this would be best for his future (it will take longer, but better quality hour, right?)
No big deal but ideas are always welcome
Thanks
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 76
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From: n/a
I would personally take option 1 for at least one year, build up some hours and experience (especially low level) and then go back to the boss of the 212/412 job and ask him if there is any work.
I've never done fire fighting work, but i can't imagine it to be the easiest type of flying. I'm sure some of the more experienced fire fighting boys could answer that for you.
Just my 2 cents.
But as you say, its a good problem to have.... isn't it.
NiB
I've never done fire fighting work, but i can't imagine it to be the easiest type of flying. I'm sure some of the more experienced fire fighting boys could answer that for you.
Just my 2 cents.
But as you say, its a good problem to have.... isn't it.
NiB
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,383
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From: ...in view of the 'Southern Cross' ...
Mmmmm ...
This is a "No Brainer" .... He should get the B412 rating ... he will then fly the machine with a very experienced Captain who will hopefully teach him the stuff he doesn't yet realise he doesn't know!
With a R44 rating even if he gets hours he won't be let anywhere near a 412 except in exceptional circumstance AND the opportunity may not be available in the future .... however with proven 412 experience even as P2 .... he will be quite acceptable to go back to the smaller machines later!
Tell him .... Good Luck from me
This is a "No Brainer" .... He should get the B412 rating ... he will then fly the machine with a very experienced Captain who will hopefully teach him the stuff he doesn't yet realise he doesn't know!
With a R44 rating even if he gets hours he won't be let anywhere near a 412 except in exceptional circumstance AND the opportunity may not be available in the future .... however with proven 412 experience even as P2 .... he will be quite acceptable to go back to the smaller machines later!
Tell him .... Good Luck from me
There are no limits
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 506
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From: Shrewsbury, England.
But in the R44 he will build PIC time which is a must.
Nice to fly a 412 but as a co-pilot? It is quite possible that he may learn some bad stuff from the veteran Captain.
I say go with the R44, get 1500 PIC and then you are very employable worldwide (but not at the moment)
Nice to fly a 412 but as a co-pilot? It is quite possible that he may learn some bad stuff from the veteran Captain.
I say go with the R44, get 1500 PIC and then you are very employable worldwide (but not at the moment)
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,383
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From: ...in view of the 'Southern Cross' ...
Mmmmmm ...
...It is quite possible that he may learn some bad stuff from the veteran Captain.
Yes .... that is a distict possibility ..... anything is a possibility and that is a problem with life ... that anything MIGHT happen!
However .... let us assume that any company that is flying 412s on a contract is professional ... and therefore subject to a Checking and Training scheme which has been approved ... the chances of them employing a misfit to fly as a captain on their machines is minimal. If that be the case then I would suggest that it is more likely that the "experienced Captain" would teach techniques that are beneficial rather than bad.
I would suggest there is greater likely hood of a "new chum" teaching himself "bad stuff" by being let loose alone in the R44 than being supervised by another ...... and with the way this industry works ... those with a 412 rating just might find it easier to translate that into a better future than those with just the R44.
Now I only have 4000+ hrs in the 412 BUT in that machine I can do lots of different work that you cannot do in a 'robbie' .... if fact I am not even rated in the wee beastie ... so you might claim I don't know .... BUT I'll bet my plan would work out be better in the long run
Cheers
...It is quite possible that he may learn some bad stuff from the veteran Captain.
Yes .... that is a distict possibility ..... anything is a possibility and that is a problem with life ... that anything MIGHT happen!
However .... let us assume that any company that is flying 412s on a contract is professional ... and therefore subject to a Checking and Training scheme which has been approved ... the chances of them employing a misfit to fly as a captain on their machines is minimal. If that be the case then I would suggest that it is more likely that the "experienced Captain" would teach techniques that are beneficial rather than bad.
I would suggest there is greater likely hood of a "new chum" teaching himself "bad stuff" by being let loose alone in the R44 than being supervised by another ...... and with the way this industry works ... those with a 412 rating just might find it easier to translate that into a better future than those with just the R44.
Now I only have 4000+ hrs in the 412 BUT in that machine I can do lots of different work that you cannot do in a 'robbie' .... if fact I am not even rated in the wee beastie ... so you might claim I don't know .... BUT I'll bet my plan would work out be better in the long run
Cheers
Joined: Jan 2005
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From: Out there somewhere
Have to agree with the 44 route. I flew those 'wee beasties' for about 1800 hours then transitioned into the 412, which I of course love. I will however say I'm glad that I learned how to fly as a single pilot and make decisions on my own. I'm thankful of that. I'm also thankful to have experienced being scared too!! I'm certain we have all felt that pull in the stomach.
Now as far as the 412 goes, I personally only have 400 hours on the aircraft but I'm only just learning what I was taught in the training. It's now making sense. I am re-reading my training manuals and I now understand things far better than when I started. I also fly it 6 days a week so I get time to learn.
150 hours is great twin time and will certainly set him up in the future but I agree with What Limits says about the PIC time.
IMHO opinion take the 44 and the PIC time and build those hours!
Now as far as the 412 goes, I personally only have 400 hours on the aircraft but I'm only just learning what I was taught in the training. It's now making sense. I am re-reading my training manuals and I now understand things far better than when I started. I also fly it 6 days a week so I get time to learn.
150 hours is great twin time and will certainly set him up in the future but I agree with What Limits says about the PIC time.
IMHO opinion take the 44 and the PIC time and build those hours!
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 64
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From: Canada
Where does this person want to be in 5 years and what type of flying is avaliable in the country of residence?
If the long term goal is off shore-IFR, multi crew work environment then go for the 212/412 option.
If utility type work is desired and or more avaliable then do the R-44 gig.
If the long term goal is off shore-IFR, multi crew work environment then go for the 212/412 option.
If utility type work is desired and or more avaliable then do the R-44 gig.
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 816
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From: Home
Good morning,
spinwing is right.
Go for the 412. If you let that opportunity slip it might not come back.
Someone else will have taken that job AND keep it.
It is always easier to find a job in an R44 than a twin turbine because there are many more out there.
You could even pay for the type rating yourself which is kind of tough with the 412...or should I say next to impossible.
I didn't get into fire fighting because companies always asked for rated pilots.
You seem to be lucky, so don't push it.
spinwing is right.
Go for the 412. If you let that opportunity slip it might not come back.
Someone else will have taken that job AND keep it.
It is always easier to find a job in an R44 than a twin turbine because there are many more out there.
You could even pay for the type rating yourself which is kind of tough with the 412...or should I say next to impossible.
I didn't get into fire fighting because companies always asked for rated pilots.
You seem to be lucky, so don't push it.
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 99
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From: UK
Speaking as someone who went straight from training into a co-pilot job on a medium twin, i then found it comparatively easy to go back and get the single pilot "Jet-ranger" type experience that then gave me enough P1 time to get a command in the medium twin. It's worked out very well for my career.
From an airmanship and learning point of view, yes, it would probably be preferable to get 1,000 hours in the 44 then switch to the 412, but we don't live in a perfect world and if he has the option of getting a 412 rating and some p2 time then i would take it and accept that there are different ways of gaining experience.
The 412 rating is very likely not to be an option in the future - take it now.
Best of luck
Barny
From an airmanship and learning point of view, yes, it would probably be preferable to get 1,000 hours in the 44 then switch to the 412, but we don't live in a perfect world and if he has the option of getting a 412 rating and some p2 time then i would take it and accept that there are different ways of gaining experience.
The 412 rating is very likely not to be an option in the future - take it now.
Best of luck
Barny
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2007
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From: AGL in Brazil
As I mentioned before, I also think the 412 option is the best one, since a twin-engine hour in a Fire fighting flight (no controlled environment), landing anywhere necessary to leave the personnal, with a captain next to him teaching some good stuff has no comparison with the R44... especially for the long run...
The company we work is a serious company in Spain with a great group of people and we normally show and teach the newbees, as they come as co-pilots... so this should not be an issue
Also, even if he goes for the Power Line R44 job, he will be flying alone, but a known environment, pretty much the same everyday, same airfield for landing.... I don't know... not much to learn
Also, I think that we all had opportunities to be scared one day or another, so I don't think people should be looking for it by flying alone, especially if unexperienced, recently out of school...
Anyway, good luck for him... I wish I had had this problem when I started...
Also, one thing to consider is that he does not have IFR, so if he doesn't do the 412, what is he gonna have later on when looking for another job... R44 hours?? Lot's of people have the Robinson...
By the way, here in Spain, companies are always looking for people to work in the fire campaing, April-October... 1000 hours should be fine since many people come from the Army with that amount of hours...
Let me know (PM) if anyone need any information
The company we work is a serious company in Spain with a great group of people and we normally show and teach the newbees, as they come as co-pilots... so this should not be an issue
Also, even if he goes for the Power Line R44 job, he will be flying alone, but a known environment, pretty much the same everyday, same airfield for landing.... I don't know... not much to learn
Also, I think that we all had opportunities to be scared one day or another, so I don't think people should be looking for it by flying alone, especially if unexperienced, recently out of school...
Anyway, good luck for him... I wish I had had this problem when I started...
Also, one thing to consider is that he does not have IFR, so if he doesn't do the 412, what is he gonna have later on when looking for another job... R44 hours?? Lot's of people have the Robinson...
By the way, here in Spain, companies are always looking for people to work in the fire campaing, April-October... 1000 hours should be fine since many people come from the Army with that amount of hours...
Let me know (PM) if anyone need any information
Joined: May 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
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From: Downeast
Take the 412 route and as fire fighting is seasonal....work the off season doing utility work in small birds.
If the fire company will pay for the 412 type rating....it is a no brainer!
If the fire company will pay for the 412 type rating....it is a no brainer!
Joined: Jul 2007
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From: UK, US, now more ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀
OMG.
While P1 time is nice to have in rotary job market, people do instructing or heli tours, mustering etc TO GET INTO TWIN LIKE 412. Beauty. Sure, instructing can be rewarding, but frankly, how many fresh CPL(H) holders around the world - the ones not lucky to own a bird or have special relations/tons cash for JAA IR(H) etc, would give it a pass, flying in 412?
Sure, power line inspection isn't instructing, but it's also (in my view) fairly routine flying compared to fire fighting (and in single piston!)
I thought one gets to fire fighting with reasonable experience only.
Sure, I'm talking as 'modular' trainee, at PPL level-ish (bar the FAA credit card), but having read tons and tons of stuff here and elsewhere, all the job ads for all sorts of utility, fire fighting, HEMS etc, they're very picky as to whom they'd hire. Insurance, experience, hours. It's all that matters.
God, please let the things be easier with my saving/funding to finish up and I'd sell one of my family members (and no, I'm not married/engaged) for that chance.
As said, you can do some other flying off season without going near max hours flown a year. Or talk about the most generous holiday allowance in the world, paid OK money per annum.
While P1 time is nice to have in rotary job market, people do instructing or heli tours, mustering etc TO GET INTO TWIN LIKE 412. Beauty. Sure, instructing can be rewarding, but frankly, how many fresh CPL(H) holders around the world - the ones not lucky to own a bird or have special relations/tons cash for JAA IR(H) etc, would give it a pass, flying in 412?
Sure, power line inspection isn't instructing, but it's also (in my view) fairly routine flying compared to fire fighting (and in single piston!)
I thought one gets to fire fighting with reasonable experience only.
Sure, I'm talking as 'modular' trainee, at PPL level-ish (bar the FAA credit card), but having read tons and tons of stuff here and elsewhere, all the job ads for all sorts of utility, fire fighting, HEMS etc, they're very picky as to whom they'd hire. Insurance, experience, hours. It's all that matters.
God, please let the things be easier with my saving/funding to finish up and I'd sell one of my family members (and no, I'm not married/engaged) for that chance.
As said, you can do some other flying off season without going near max hours flown a year. Or talk about the most generous holiday allowance in the world, paid OK money per annum.
Last edited by MartinCh; 6th September 2009 at 03:50. Reason: perfectionist..
Joined: Nov 2005
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From: Where the contracts are
Fire fighting 99% boredom 1% sheer terror also as said before - seasonal. Most companies involved with fire fighting are not averse to allowing crew to take other work outside a fire season. It saves them money! 
So a newbie can hive off - at no cost to the fire fighting outfit - to do the hour building in the off season and that way work into the command seat a tad quicker.
Also, employers look at various things when taking new staff and genarally a squillion hours in an R44 don't hold a candle to TWIN turbine time, even if the hours are lower.
So a newbie can hive off - at no cost to the fire fighting outfit - to do the hour building in the off season and that way work into the command seat a tad quicker. Also, employers look at various things when taking new staff and genarally a squillion hours in an R44 don't hold a candle to TWIN turbine time, even if the hours are lower.
Joined: Jun 2007
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From: North of Antartica
R44 or Bell 412
No contest!!
In 1 years time:
option 1 would be just another Robbie driver,
option 2 would be a useful pilot of a proper commercial machine.
Either way this guy must have golden boxxxxxs or related to someone "special" to be given such a leg up!!
In 1 years time:
option 1 would be just another Robbie driver,
option 2 would be a useful pilot of a proper commercial machine.
Either way this guy must have golden boxxxxxs or related to someone "special" to be given such a leg up!!
