Another Night-HEMS accident in US
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The NVG nightmare
I think the old school geriatrics at the FAA are to blame due to their unfounded fear of NVGs based on their own ignorance. Today's goggles are leaps and bounds beyond the cut-away 5s that I first used over 20 years ago.
I can make any pilot safer by a multiple factor in as little as 5 hours of NVG training. It is criminal to send a pilot out unaided. Shame, shame.
I can make any pilot safer by a multiple factor in as little as 5 hours of NVG training. It is criminal to send a pilot out unaided. Shame, shame.
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How would they go about checking lights after the fact? And no, they don't ride with us, because there is no room. We can't carry an inspector and a patient at the same time. Either we follow the rules or we don't. We aren't children, and we should know right from wrong when it comes to the rules. If we don't, people can, and often do, die. The regulations are there, we know what they say and what they mean, and when we're out there alone, we have to follow them. The feds cannot, and should not, look over our shoulders every minute of every flight. Personal responsibility is still important.
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Gomer is spot on. And in fact personal responsibility is not just important but fundamental and crucial. Harsh though it sounds, this accident is surely basic pilot error and I'm sure she'd be the first to admit it. A clear night, pretty flat terrain, a sophisticated helicopter and it simply gets flown into the sea on approach. Scanning the altimeter should have prevented this, let alone the radalt. Sure ground reference was scanty, but all the more reason to fly with careful reference to height.
The real lesson here is that as pilots we can all make mistakes and so have to be continually careful and not get complacent. It is important that a culture doesn't develop where people default to blaming systems and lack of equipment etc unreasonably and as a knee jerk reaction.
Wonderful all safe. But a huge waste of money and another blow to the reputation of helicopters.
The real lesson here is that as pilots we can all make mistakes and so have to be continually careful and not get complacent. It is important that a culture doesn't develop where people default to blaming systems and lack of equipment etc unreasonably and as a knee jerk reaction.
Wonderful all safe. But a huge waste of money and another blow to the reputation of helicopters.
What is it about American EMS Helicopter pilots that allows for such poor decision making then? It is not the individual as the problem is wide spread across the entire industry. Why do we continue to fly perfectly sound helicopters into the ground/water year after year? Why can we not see the "trap" being sprung on us until the trigger snaps?
This poor lady is no different than probably thousands of pilots now filling seats of EMS helicopters....it happened to her....and she is only the most recent victim....and Lord knows we have hundreds of others that fell prey to the same situation or very similar situations.
What is the answer to the problem?
Better yet....exactly what is the problem?
Until we know that....we cannot address the situation with an effective response.
This poor lady is no different than probably thousands of pilots now filling seats of EMS helicopters....it happened to her....and she is only the most recent victim....and Lord knows we have hundreds of others that fell prey to the same situation or very similar situations.
What is the answer to the problem?
Better yet....exactly what is the problem?
Until we know that....we cannot address the situation with an effective response.
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SASLess,
We have had this discussion before on this forum. It all boils down to culture. Right from the word go, Americans are taught to be independent, self reliant and courageous.Risk taking is valued. All good qualities if you have to win the wild west, open a business after quitting a well paying job or invent the airplane. But the down side : risky behavior,anti -authority(dont' want the FAA or anybody getting into my stuff!) and,in a single pilot operation like ours, deviations from standard procedures that go unchecked.The key difference is that the rest of the world will not do anything unless it is specifically authorized, whereas we Americans will do everything that is not specifically forbidden.
Hard to change a mindset of a culture. Wouldn't you say?
Alt3.
We have had this discussion before on this forum. It all boils down to culture. Right from the word go, Americans are taught to be independent, self reliant and courageous.Risk taking is valued. All good qualities if you have to win the wild west, open a business after quitting a well paying job or invent the airplane. But the down side : risky behavior,anti -authority(dont' want the FAA or anybody getting into my stuff!) and,in a single pilot operation like ours, deviations from standard procedures that go unchecked.The key difference is that the rest of the world will not do anything unless it is specifically authorized, whereas we Americans will do everything that is not specifically forbidden.
Hard to change a mindset of a culture. Wouldn't you say?
Alt3.
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SASless, you're generalising here too much. With many EMS accidents there are clearly hazardous, challenging, specific circumstances, and sensible operational changes should only be established by looking at each of the incidents and identifying what the cause/major risk factors really were in each one.
For example, most seem to involve poor weather at night. And one can see logic in implementing better weather reporting, use of IFR helicopters and pilots, NVGs etc if one is going to operate at night, though I'm no expert in this field.
But the difference here is that this incident didn't have any really challenging elements.
The problem is that we are human beings, and can make mistakes. In the future, as affordable technology increases and tolerance of accidents reduces, our ability as human pilots to have the freedom to fly, be responsible for the control of aircraft (and cars etc), and exercise judgement, is going to depend on our ability to make fewer mistakes.
For example, most seem to involve poor weather at night. And one can see logic in implementing better weather reporting, use of IFR helicopters and pilots, NVGs etc if one is going to operate at night, though I'm no expert in this field.
But the difference here is that this incident didn't have any really challenging elements.
The problem is that we are human beings, and can make mistakes. In the future, as affordable technology increases and tolerance of accidents reduces, our ability as human pilots to have the freedom to fly, be responsible for the control of aircraft (and cars etc), and exercise judgement, is going to depend on our ability to make fewer mistakes.
A3,
Never having been one to challenge authority or resist oversight by those I perceived as less knowing or not as skilled as I.....I find your suggestion Americans in general and helicopter pilots in particular resist standardized, regulated, and monitored conduct in the performance of their duties and in establishing a risk adverse approach to flight. Don't the rest of you out there embrace such concepts as most of us truely professional airmen have?
One would suppose rational, semi-intelligent, and reasonable folk would be able to discern when risk taking compared to the expected return fails to measure up to the level that is acceptable.
Are you saying Americans and Helicopter pilots being creatures of our environment are not suitable equipped by our socialization to confront the demands of Helicopter EMS flying? If that is so, your suggestion as I perceive it, and the result if true, then there is no hope for turning this situation around without the import of foreign influences.
Am I wrong in my perception?
Never having been one to challenge authority or resist oversight by those I perceived as less knowing or not as skilled as I.....I find your suggestion Americans in general and helicopter pilots in particular resist standardized, regulated, and monitored conduct in the performance of their duties and in establishing a risk adverse approach to flight. Don't the rest of you out there embrace such concepts as most of us truely professional airmen have?
One would suppose rational, semi-intelligent, and reasonable folk would be able to discern when risk taking compared to the expected return fails to measure up to the level that is acceptable.
Are you saying Americans and Helicopter pilots being creatures of our environment are not suitable equipped by our socialization to confront the demands of Helicopter EMS flying? If that is so, your suggestion as I perceive it, and the result if true, then there is no hope for turning this situation around without the import of foreign influences.
Am I wrong in my perception?
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SASLess,
I certainly hope that the majority of the pilots here are like you. That they can distinguish betweeh high risk and low risk activities and make proper judgement calls. And,no, it is not too late to turn it around. After all the airline industry of the 1950's went through the same problems we face today: poor safety record, low wages due to excessive supply of pilots ex WW2, labor strife etc. Look at them now. If they can do it so can we.We certainly don't need the European model or the Canadian model here. What we need to do is adopt that which is good from them and make it work for us.The answer probably lies somwhere in the middle between Capitalist Cowboys and the Nanny state.
Alt3
I certainly hope that the majority of the pilots here are like you. That they can distinguish betweeh high risk and low risk activities and make proper judgement calls. And,no, it is not too late to turn it around. After all the airline industry of the 1950's went through the same problems we face today: poor safety record, low wages due to excessive supply of pilots ex WW2, labor strife etc. Look at them now. If they can do it so can we.We certainly don't need the European model or the Canadian model here. What we need to do is adopt that which is good from them and make it work for us.The answer probably lies somwhere in the middle between Capitalist Cowboys and the Nanny state.
Alt3
There are no limits
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We certainly don't need the European model or the Canadian model here.
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What Limits,
Yes, we certainly are. However, we are flying and saving a lot more people than the two are too. Does Natasha Richardson ring a bell?I am convinced that if she had been skiing in Colorado, she would be alive today. Somehow or the other, an 'unsafe' yank, flying a poorly equipped helicopter would have got there and done his/her job. Of course, it maybe quite possible that the insurance company here would not have paid the bill,unlike the Canadian and European sytem of govt. sponsored HEMS.
ALT3
Yes, we certainly are. However, we are flying and saving a lot more people than the two are too. Does Natasha Richardson ring a bell?I am convinced that if she had been skiing in Colorado, she would be alive today. Somehow or the other, an 'unsafe' yank, flying a poorly equipped helicopter would have got there and done his/her job. Of course, it maybe quite possible that the insurance company here would not have paid the bill,unlike the Canadian and European sytem of govt. sponsored HEMS.
ALT3
Well now....this exchange brings up a question.
When we count the "dead"....should we include those that snuff it because of the lack of, non-existence of, or the lack of flying due to regulations and counter the numbers of those that are killed in EMS crashes, to arrive at a net gain/loss analysis to determine whether we are gaining or losing in the lives saved/lives lost tally?
After all....human life is precious (except maybe to those on the far left of the political spectrum as evidenced by the current debate on healthcare here in the USA or those in the UK who accept the NICE doctrine) thus even if we lose a bunch but save one more than we lose....then the cost is worth it. Right?
When we count the "dead"....should we include those that snuff it because of the lack of, non-existence of, or the lack of flying due to regulations and counter the numbers of those that are killed in EMS crashes, to arrive at a net gain/loss analysis to determine whether we are gaining or losing in the lives saved/lives lost tally?
After all....human life is precious (except maybe to those on the far left of the political spectrum as evidenced by the current debate on healthcare here in the USA or those in the UK who accept the NICE doctrine) thus even if we lose a bunch but save one more than we lose....then the cost is worth it. Right?
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SASLess,
My point was not about benefit-risk. Any one life lost in an HEMS crash is one too many. Just wanted to highlight the fact that the volume of HEMS flights conducted in the US versus those in other developed nations,will not compare favorably.Higher volume therefore higher accident rate. Does that mean we accept the status quo? Certainly not. But this constant comparison with the Canadian system and how great their safety record is odious.Apples to Oranges, my friend. Every discussion centered around that is ---er--- fruitless.
Alt3.
My point was not about benefit-risk. Any one life lost in an HEMS crash is one too many. Just wanted to highlight the fact that the volume of HEMS flights conducted in the US versus those in other developed nations,will not compare favorably.Higher volume therefore higher accident rate. Does that mean we accept the status quo? Certainly not. But this constant comparison with the Canadian system and how great their safety record is odious.Apples to Oranges, my friend. Every discussion centered around that is ---er--- fruitless.
Alt3.
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You have to look beyond just numbers. ISTR that there are more helicopters flying daily in the Gulf of Mexico than exist in either Canada or Europe. With much larger numbers of operations, there will inevitably be more accidents. You have to look at the rate, not just the raw numbers. Yes, there are more accidents in the US, but there are many more helicopters flying many more hours.
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Does Natasha Richardson ring a bell?I am convinced that if she had been skiing in Colorado, she would be alive today.
That might be Aussie Rob but upon discerning there was a problem.....the lack of a Helicopter EMS service doomed her to her fate without any doubt. If there had been a service perhaps she might have survived...at least there would have been a chance.
Is that situation a case of Nationalized Health Care bureaucrats weighing cost benefits against the value of lives? How does a Canadian Province justify not having a Helicopter EMS service when the rest of the country does?
Is that situation a case of Nationalized Health Care bureaucrats weighing cost benefits against the value of lives? How does a Canadian Province justify not having a Helicopter EMS service when the rest of the country does?
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Poor SASless is alone, let me help out. Is European helicopter flying safer than in the US? No, statistically, the US accident rate and fatal accident rate per hour is actually a tad lower, although not enough to declare a significant difference. Eurpoeans fly less (about half as much), have more rules, pay more (because they think it buys them something), gnash their teeth more, and brag more, but in the end, they harm their passengers at the same rate.
"Just a pilot"
Think about it- Why would night EMS be disproportionately more dangerous?
The same pilots, aircraft, area, and flights as they do in daylight, but the accident rate is somewhere in the area of 4 times the day rate. This event reinforces the pattern that it doesn't seem to matter if the aircraft is a single or twin, IFR or VFR, or autopilot equipped: pilot error seems to be more common at night.
The same pilots, aircraft, area, and flights as they do in daylight, but the accident rate is somewhere in the area of 4 times the day rate. This event reinforces the pattern that it doesn't seem to matter if the aircraft is a single or twin, IFR or VFR, or autopilot equipped: pilot error seems to be more common at night.
Devil
Agreed, but take a look at your logbook. I just looked at mine and low and behold 3% of my total time is at night. I am guessing that most pilots have infinitely more experience of flying during daylight hours. How many training flights take place at night? I would hazard a guess that all required training is done in day VFR conditions.
Have to agree with Sasless about the FAA oversight. I have NEVER seen an FAA inspector after 4pm. In general, the oversight is to check paperwork and duty hours. (Caveat--I am NOT in EMS, nor have I ever flown EMS, or do I ever wish to..).
doesn't seem to matter if the aircraft is a single or twin, IFR or VFR, or autopilot equipped: pilot error seems to be more common at night.
Have to agree with Sasless about the FAA oversight. I have NEVER seen an FAA inspector after 4pm. In general, the oversight is to check paperwork and duty hours. (Caveat--I am NOT in EMS, nor have I ever flown EMS, or do I ever wish to..).
Last edited by Gordy; 29th Aug 2009 at 16:56. Reason: Mathmatical conversion error..