Another R22 Lost - June 27
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Another R22 Lost - June 27
Sad news 
Pilot's body found in chopper wreckage
June 27, 2009 04:12am
A MAN has died in a helicopter crash in Western Australia's Pilbara region.
Police found the man amid the wreckage of the Robinson helicopter 118km west of Paraburdoo late last night.
The aerial musterer was the sole occupant of the two-seater helicopter and his identity is yet to be confirmed, The Weekend Australian says.
Police had spent Friday afternoon searching the air and ground for the helicopter after the man did not arrive at a Pilbara station as scheduled.
The man was last seen refuelling in Newman, around 1200km north of Perth, at 8.30pm on Friday.
A West Australian police spokesman says investigators from the Air Transport Safety Bureau will arrive at the scene on Saturday to investigate.
June 27, 2009 04:12am
A MAN has died in a helicopter crash in Western Australia's Pilbara region.
Police found the man amid the wreckage of the Robinson helicopter 118km west of Paraburdoo late last night.
The aerial musterer was the sole occupant of the two-seater helicopter and his identity is yet to be confirmed, The Weekend Australian says.
Police had spent Friday afternoon searching the air and ground for the helicopter after the man did not arrive at a Pilbara station as scheduled.
The man was last seen refuelling in Newman, around 1200km north of Perth, at 8.30pm on Friday.
A West Australian police spokesman says investigators from the Air Transport Safety Bureau will arrive at the scene on Saturday to investigate.
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Either 8.30 Am Friday, or 8.30 Pm on thursday night. this report suggests thursday night
[quote]
Posted Fri Jun 26, 2009 6:07pm AEST
Updated Fri Jun 26, 2009 7:07pm AEST
The wreckage of a helicopter has been found in WA's north west. Police searching for a missing helicopter have found wreckage 40 kilometres south of Wyloo station in the state's north west.
The two seater helicopter was last seen refuelling in Newman, in the Pilbara, about half past eight last night.
The wreckage was spotted from the air early this afternoon.
Police on the ground are expected to take several hours to reach the site.
in any event, if he was heading to Wyloo, a known helicopter base, and he was 40K south one can see from google earth that it was a trip of 216 NM's.
at economical cruise that's as far as they go, if not further. at 75 knots, say with a five to seven knot NWesterly it is a logical arrival point for a compass only flight.
no ringer, one would hope that it's not a practice that this gent undertook or that others do. but there seem to be lots of mavericks around, i hear them on my main base UHF often at 30 and up to 60 minutes before first light.
<H1>Helicopter crash
Posted Fri Jun 26, 2009 6:07pm AEST
Updated Fri Jun 26, 2009 7:07pm AEST
The wreckage of a helicopter has been found in WA's north west. Police searching for a missing helicopter have found wreckage 40 kilometres south of Wyloo station in the state's north west.The two seater helicopter was last seen refuelling in Newman, in the Pilbara, about half past eight last night.
The wreckage was spotted from the air early this afternoon.
Police on the ground are expected to take several hours to reach the site.
in any event, if he was heading to Wyloo, a known helicopter base, and he was 40K south one can see from google earth that it was a trip of 216 NM's.
no ringer, one would hope that it's not a practice that this gent undertook or that others do. but there seem to be lots of mavericks around, i hear them on my main base UHF often at 30 and up to 60 minutes before first light.
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The Gentleman Pilot's name is Daniel Gilbert (36) from Queensland (as released by Perth Police tonite).
.respect to his family
I will post pics of the crash site later.
.respect to his family
I will post pics of the crash site later.
Last edited by flopter; 29th Jun 2009 at 13:34. Reason: ..continuing respect to his family.
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I must say that I am unable to comprehend why this poor soul felt that he was under such enormous commercial pressure that he had to press on.
There also was a significant rain system that went through that area that night, perhaps he was so tired that he didn't even notice the lowering cloud base etc. Last light at 5.30 pm and three hours later refuels at Newman, leaving an obvious paper trail. Three hours or so later he crashes. absolutely unnecessary. Possibly the fellow was flying all day to boot.
It also says nothing of his training and endorsing pilots, given that I believe he only had limited experience, say a few hundred hours.
This OZ low level industry needs a proper shake up there is no doubt and it's not from the top end of town but the bottom end. one only has to look at the attrition rate the last twenty four months or so. nine or ten fatalities come to mind easily. By the grace of god the two at Dundee beach survived, they should not have.
I remember the biggest mustering company years back, where if one was caught flying after last light it was instant dismissal. INSTANT, i remember one was. They were the biggest and made the most, so why does anyone need to use a different philosophy to make money. maybe I've missed something.
Only a short time ago we were hearing how CASA was going to give up administering AOC's for musterers and let them go private and unattended.
Well if one has a look at the private op fatalities in the last couple of months they should be choking on that philosophy well and truly.
Unlimited hours for private ops under OZ regs? any wonder that poor young man at Kowanyama made a mistake and walked into his main rotor, I believe that he had flown more hours in a mustering season that I have ever heard of.
Many of us did big hours in years past, but they were spread over a mustering season and a shooting season at the end of it, say 48 weeks, not just 36 weeks or so.
I'd be interested to hear some real statistics and also whether any industry body has the gumption to step up to the plate and demand some real action, better still prescribe it.
At least the workplace Health and Safety west australian people are asking serious questions of a couple of industry experienced people.
It should not have to be left to them.
not so cheers tet
There also was a significant rain system that went through that area that night, perhaps he was so tired that he didn't even notice the lowering cloud base etc. Last light at 5.30 pm and three hours later refuels at Newman, leaving an obvious paper trail. Three hours or so later he crashes. absolutely unnecessary. Possibly the fellow was flying all day to boot.
It also says nothing of his training and endorsing pilots, given that I believe he only had limited experience, say a few hundred hours.
This OZ low level industry needs a proper shake up there is no doubt and it's not from the top end of town but the bottom end. one only has to look at the attrition rate the last twenty four months or so. nine or ten fatalities come to mind easily. By the grace of god the two at Dundee beach survived, they should not have.
I remember the biggest mustering company years back, where if one was caught flying after last light it was instant dismissal. INSTANT, i remember one was. They were the biggest and made the most, so why does anyone need to use a different philosophy to make money. maybe I've missed something.
Only a short time ago we were hearing how CASA was going to give up administering AOC's for musterers and let them go private and unattended.
Well if one has a look at the private op fatalities in the last couple of months they should be choking on that philosophy well and truly.
Unlimited hours for private ops under OZ regs? any wonder that poor young man at Kowanyama made a mistake and walked into his main rotor, I believe that he had flown more hours in a mustering season that I have ever heard of.
Many of us did big hours in years past, but they were spread over a mustering season and a shooting season at the end of it, say 48 weeks, not just 36 weeks or so.
I'd be interested to hear some real statistics and also whether any industry body has the gumption to step up to the plate and demand some real action, better still prescribe it.
At least the workplace Health and Safety west australian people are asking serious questions of a couple of industry experienced people.
It should not have to be left to them.
not so cheers tet
Hi Topend
I did wonder about the report of refueling at 8.30 pm myself.
Was the machine/pilot NVFR rated? Even so I wouldn't want to be out there (woop woop) in an R22 at night.
Very sad.
Huey
I did wonder about the report of refueling at 8.30 pm myself.
Was the machine/pilot NVFR rated? Even so I wouldn't want to be out there (woop woop) in an R22 at night.
Very sad.
Huey
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just a bit more on night flights for general info.
I think the gentleman did have a night rating, but whether the machine had been upgraded as such in the last few months I don’t know. It didn’t have before then. There seems to be a fair few radio aids in the general vicinity of his flight path.
However those arguments are superfluous for a couple of reasons.
First of all if you are going to do night VFR it needs to be a visual horizon, something fairly difficult in the back blocks with no moon (at that time) and given that Newman had 39mm of rain that day or night it is very debateable as to whether there was even a clear enough sky for a horizon to be seen. He would have needed to have relied on a GPS for sure as I have been reminded that mag compasses in that neck of the woods have a habit of pointing to the nearest iron ore load. (noted islander jock suggestion that it may have been clear)
Secondly CASA have a history of stipulating that Helicopter Mustering Operations flights shall be only carried out during daylight hours and in fact duty time can only be extended for one half of one hour past or before daylight. That comes from the exemption instrument for mustering (commercial) operations flight and duty times. That means that flight and duty time is limited by virtue of the fact that mustering is usually undertaken during our winter months when daylight extends for eleven or so hours and little over twelve hours even in September.
That instrument was argued for by senior mustering people as delegated by the majority of the whole industry and it was never their intention nor would they have expected that positioning flights for mustering operations be carried out at night, with or without a legal and rated capacity to undertake such flights.
Besides, all of the flying that both pilot and machine does must be accounted for under AOC guidelines. One cannot simply and cutely cannot opt into and out of commercial and private for one’s own sake. If you are doing a commercial job and positioning for the next job, then whether you charge for it or not at either a full or a lesser rate it is still for the commercial purpose at the next day’s mustering.
If this pilot was an entry level pilot (less than 500 in command, mustering) then he is limited to 10 hours flying per day up to 120 in 30 days. Over 500 PIC at mustering then he may do (during daylight) 100 hours in 16 days as long as he has at least two duty free days as rest during that time.
Somehow I just cannot fit into my mind where the period of flight from 8.30pm for 216 nautical miles later at or about 75 knots indicated fits in any of those pictures.
I think the gentleman did have a night rating, but whether the machine had been upgraded as such in the last few months I don’t know. It didn’t have before then. There seems to be a fair few radio aids in the general vicinity of his flight path.
However those arguments are superfluous for a couple of reasons.
First of all if you are going to do night VFR it needs to be a visual horizon, something fairly difficult in the back blocks with no moon (at that time) and given that Newman had 39mm of rain that day or night it is very debateable as to whether there was even a clear enough sky for a horizon to be seen. He would have needed to have relied on a GPS for sure as I have been reminded that mag compasses in that neck of the woods have a habit of pointing to the nearest iron ore load. (noted islander jock suggestion that it may have been clear)
Secondly CASA have a history of stipulating that Helicopter Mustering Operations flights shall be only carried out during daylight hours and in fact duty time can only be extended for one half of one hour past or before daylight. That comes from the exemption instrument for mustering (commercial) operations flight and duty times. That means that flight and duty time is limited by virtue of the fact that mustering is usually undertaken during our winter months when daylight extends for eleven or so hours and little over twelve hours even in September.
That instrument was argued for by senior mustering people as delegated by the majority of the whole industry and it was never their intention nor would they have expected that positioning flights for mustering operations be carried out at night, with or without a legal and rated capacity to undertake such flights.
Besides, all of the flying that both pilot and machine does must be accounted for under AOC guidelines. One cannot simply and cutely cannot opt into and out of commercial and private for one’s own sake. If you are doing a commercial job and positioning for the next job, then whether you charge for it or not at either a full or a lesser rate it is still for the commercial purpose at the next day’s mustering.
If this pilot was an entry level pilot (less than 500 in command, mustering) then he is limited to 10 hours flying per day up to 120 in 30 days. Over 500 PIC at mustering then he may do (during daylight) 100 hours in 16 days as long as he has at least two duty free days as rest during that time.
Somehow I just cannot fit into my mind where the period of flight from 8.30pm for 216 nautical miles later at or about 75 knots indicated fits in any of those pictures.
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Everybody concened.
it has come to my attention that Daniel Gilbert the pilot of the r22 that crash landed in the Pilbera region either at 2300 hours on the 25th of june or at 0900 on the 26th of june. it doesn't matter, but i myself is a mustering pilot in the pilbera and i was waiting for him to turn up at Uaroo Station some time throug the week. I had be in contact wit him numerous times through his travels. He was not engaged in mustering operation but bringing his machine that he owned for a job at the station, he was a muster rated pilot but wasnot going to do the job. He had Left Marrba Nth Queenslnd with little prep, ie. no maps, ersa, or a route to go by.
We had been in contact with him on thurdays and found out that he had left Alice Springs at 5am central time and was at Carnegie at 1630. We had the had a message that we could not understand, We had estimated that he would be at Newman at approx. 2030 thursday night, he did have three jerry can of fuel on board with him. He did not communicate with us when he had got to Newman, We did not find out that he was at Newman until we got the card reading tally from the fuel pump. No one had seem him at Newman at anytime. If he had communicated with us on that night he would have had a place to stay for the night, it has also came to my attention that Daniel may have camped the night at Neman and left early in the morning.
I was on the search from Uaroo to Newman and the crash site was just south of track 65 miles from Parraburdo.
Daniel was a low houred pilot with about 400 hours, with endorsements such as R22, R44, B47, B206, AS350, sling load, night vfr, and mustering, but to date has not done any mustering nor was he.
i just wish that people would put a little more time into finding out about the person and what they were doing before they start to slag off the mustering industry..
We had been in contact with him on thurdays and found out that he had left Alice Springs at 5am central time and was at Carnegie at 1630. We had the had a message that we could not understand, We had estimated that he would be at Newman at approx. 2030 thursday night, he did have three jerry can of fuel on board with him. He did not communicate with us when he had got to Newman, We did not find out that he was at Newman until we got the card reading tally from the fuel pump. No one had seem him at Newman at anytime. If he had communicated with us on that night he would have had a place to stay for the night, it has also came to my attention that Daniel may have camped the night at Neman and left early in the morning.
I was on the search from Uaroo to Newman and the crash site was just south of track 65 miles from Parraburdo.
Daniel was a low houred pilot with about 400 hours, with endorsements such as R22, R44, B47, B206, AS350, sling load, night vfr, and mustering, but to date has not done any mustering nor was he.
i just wish that people would put a little more time into finding out about the person and what they were doing before they start to slag off the mustering industry..
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well i'll be--.
thoughts of Wendy Northcutt's book come to mind, especially the bit about young J F K.
AS350, I am sorry that your mate didn't make it. My reason for providing criticisms of the mustering industry is that i have been a part of it for 35 years as a pilot and some years before that in stock camps etc. I would like to see it improve and its participants not be subject to avoidable error.
From your dissertation it may appear that your mate has not been instructed correctly in many aspects which are dangerous if not applied.
The reasons for that and the people responsible I'll leave to the ATSB to single out.
with luck if they do and then if CASA follow thru we may look forward to a higher standard of expertise riding flight licenses in the future.
all the best tet
thoughts of Wendy Northcutt's book come to mind, especially the bit about young J F K.
AS350, I am sorry that your mate didn't make it. My reason for providing criticisms of the mustering industry is that i have been a part of it for 35 years as a pilot and some years before that in stock camps etc. I would like to see it improve and its participants not be subject to avoidable error.
From your dissertation it may appear that your mate has not been instructed correctly in many aspects which are dangerous if not applied.
The reasons for that and the people responsible I'll leave to the ATSB to single out.
with luck if they do and then if CASA follow thru we may look forward to a higher standard of expertise riding flight licenses in the future.
all the best tet
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Thats great to hear from your opinion topend, but you should look at the fact that you are critissing the mustering industry, even though you have been in it for some time. But as it is this accident involving Daniel, HE WAS NOT MUSTERING NOR WAS HE GOING TO BE MUSTERING............ so its not the industry that needs to be looked at on this stage. Mybe we should be looking at the person that had trained this person. I have been in the mustering industry for sometime myself, but remember that it all starts from the basic of training. He was not prepared for the jorney under taken, in more was then any one can belive. Who in their right mind travels across the country without maps, and he had no maps. just to add one last thing you are jumping to a conclussion again thinking that he was a mate of mine i did not know him i spoke to him three times on his jorney.
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5 type-ratings and ~ 400 hours...........Irrespective of who trained him, he had enough experience to be able to assess the risks. He was a big boy and didn't need his hand held.
To set off on any sort of journey with such poor preparation is either supreme arrogance or extreme foolhardiness.
Darwin has a habit of intervening, this fellow learned the hard way, that ego, arrogance and complacency can bite you on the ass big-time.
Please don't start flaming because you think I'm callous or insensitive.
Trying to be dispassionate and blunt.
Don't get full of yourself, you're not invincible.....fly safe, within the limitations of yourself and your machine.
Stretching the envelope is test-pilot territory....leave it there.
To set off on any sort of journey with such poor preparation is either supreme arrogance or extreme foolhardiness.
Darwin has a habit of intervening, this fellow learned the hard way, that ego, arrogance and complacency can bite you on the ass big-time.
Please don't start flaming because you think I'm callous or insensitive.
Trying to be dispassionate and blunt.
Don't get full of yourself, you're not invincible.....fly safe, within the limitations of yourself and your machine.
Stretching the envelope is test-pilot territory....leave it there.
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HE WAS NOT MUSTERING NOR WAS HE GOING TO BE MUSTERING............
Ok. He bought himself a mustering machine, he got himself a mustering endorsement, he was going to hire the machine to someone else for mustering, and while he was there and that happened he was going to pick petunias and twiddle his thumbs while that someone else flew his total investment around the Pilbara.
On no, that’s right he was going to hitch hike back across the bloody desert without the three blessed jerry cans. Get real 350, he WAS part of the mustering industry, and especially the LOW LEVEL industry which is what I was really criticising.
Or, maybe he was just practising for the next moon shot. Talk about Darwin.
Which reminds me, there was an article recently in the NT News about how a salt water saurian caused a helicopter to crash? Well someone is going to have to speak to these bloody Darwinian reptiles about handling these pesky R22’s gently otherwise they will bite real bad. Tricky Dicky didn’t think about that when he was re-inventing the wheel did he? Oh well, we will just have to leave it to the “Croc” crew in CASA Darwin to sort these crocs out.
What you need to do 350, is to have a look at the crash reports for the last few years in the LOW LEVEL industry, it’s despicable. I was fortunate enough to be at the sharp end of it and in a large sector of it for long enough when we lifted the high bar from one written off crash every 4,000 charge hours to just less than one every 30,000 hours, all in about five years.
One aspect of that industry, which was the most difficult, was the shooting and culling operations. I can say that between four operators (all of which spawned from the same base company) they accumulated close on 500,000 hours over twenty five years or more with only three accidents. Only one of which was written off which was a fatal. One shot himself down with a ricochet off a rock into the tail rotor, and the other reckoned the butt of the rifle knocked the fuel cock off, Ho, Ho. We reckoned he forgot about air in the fuel and its depletory effect on engine performance.
What we have had recently is possibly the first definite fatigue related accidents. Your acquaintance being one and the other being the so called “private op” at Kowanyama. I’ve heard (and this is a rumour network) that that pilot had accumulated over 1900 hours in the last mustering season. If that is what he was doing then he would have been not at all “with it” when he walked into his own rotor.
I fervently believe that a lot of the current problems stem from the policy makers in CASA walking away from the small end of the industry instead of concentrating of the structured AOC companies, and the controlled checking regimes that they engender. I mean mate, look at your own state, two midair’s and this latest accident resulting in five fatalities in nearly as many months. I can remember when we spent years talking about the last fatal right across Northern Australia.
I don't see any thing that is going to change these bleak outcomes in the near or distant future, regardless of the "so-called" safety foundations etc that pontificate from their polished leather seats. Others in the industry are welcome to correct me.
You may well know more about this industry than I or many others that ply these threads, if so please elucidate your theories.
Regards tet
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I was talking to Dan some weeks ago and he indicated he had sold his R22 to a mustering operator at Emerald in QLD.
Will be interesting to find out how he ended up in such a predicament, a previous post sujested that he embarked on this jorney without any preperation-no maps,no ersa. To make the trip from Nth QLD all the way across the NT and end up just short of his destination in the Pilbara he must have been relying on some good information from some where.
My information is that Dan was well trained, just can't understand on how he could have erred so bad.
Will be interesting to find out how he ended up in such a predicament, a previous post sujested that he embarked on this jorney without any preperation-no maps,no ersa. To make the trip from Nth QLD all the way across the NT and end up just short of his destination in the Pilbara he must have been relying on some good information from some where.
My information is that Dan was well trained, just can't understand on how he could have erred so bad.
