Uniform spec's
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 646
Likes: 18
From: Europe
Uniform spec's
Hello again,
I have a big favour to ask all you big company guys (USCG, Bristow,etc).
Our police helicopter unit has a problem with it's own government as we have to excuse every little purchuse we make. The topic that is proving much too difficult is why we need all the "fancy" non breathable but expensive FR equipment and clothing like Nomex flight suits, gloves, boots, helmets and so on.
My request is; where can I get a document explaining (word, pdf,) that USCG, Bristow, or any known company for that matter, needs FR equipment. I'm not sure JAR or FAA covers this area. ICAO might cover that, right?
Thank you,
cheers
I have a big favour to ask all you big company guys (USCG, Bristow,etc).
Our police helicopter unit has a problem with it's own government as we have to excuse every little purchuse we make. The topic that is proving much too difficult is why we need all the "fancy" non breathable but expensive FR equipment and clothing like Nomex flight suits, gloves, boots, helmets and so on.
My request is; where can I get a document explaining (word, pdf,) that USCG, Bristow, or any known company for that matter, needs FR equipment. I'm not sure JAR or FAA covers this area. ICAO might cover that, right?
Thank you,
cheers
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 348
Likes: 0
From: Downwind
Don't know about your local arrangements but;
Many countries have a piece of legislation that relates to the Health & Safety of persons in employment.
In general, if a risk can be foreseen that can be reduced or eliminated by the use of Personal Protective Equipment (PPE), then that PPE is required to be provided and used.
Even better if your ops manual states that it must be used.
Could you arrange for a spontaneous safety audit?
Many countries have a piece of legislation that relates to the Health & Safety of persons in employment.
In general, if a risk can be foreseen that can be reduced or eliminated by the use of Personal Protective Equipment (PPE), then that PPE is required to be provided and used.
Even better if your ops manual states that it must be used.
Could you arrange for a spontaneous safety audit?
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 418
Likes: 0
From: Below Escape Velocity
U.S. Coast Guard Commandant Instruction (COMDTINST) M3710.1 (Series)
My copy is out of date and I haven't found one online (though I'm sure it's out there). I'm sure this hasn't changed.
Chapter 7.A.3
A.3. Flight Clothing
All crewmembers in Coast Guard aircraft, including those serving with the Coast Guard on exchange, shall use protective clothing as follows:
A.3.a. Flight suits and Boots
Aircrew personnel shall wear fire-retardant flight suits or anti-exposure coveralls and flight boots when engaged in all ground and in-flight operations.
Mission-essential personnel and passengers should wear fire retardant flight suits for operational, non-transport missions.
A.3.b. Flight Gloves
Rotary-wing (R/W) flight crews shall wear gloves when engaged in all ground and flight operations.
Multi-engine fixed-wing (ME/F/W) flight crews shall wear gloves during all ground operations, takeoffs, and landings.
Mission-essential personnel and passengers should wear fire retardant flight gloves for operational, non-transport missions.
A.3.c. For R/W aircraft, aircrewmembers within close proximity to a turning rotor system, including persons being hoisted, shall wear a helmet.
Blah, blah... there's more, but that ought to cover most of what you need...
My copy is out of date and I haven't found one online (though I'm sure it's out there). I'm sure this hasn't changed.
Chapter 7.A.3
A.3. Flight Clothing
All crewmembers in Coast Guard aircraft, including those serving with the Coast Guard on exchange, shall use protective clothing as follows:
A.3.a. Flight suits and Boots
Aircrew personnel shall wear fire-retardant flight suits or anti-exposure coveralls and flight boots when engaged in all ground and in-flight operations.
Mission-essential personnel and passengers should wear fire retardant flight suits for operational, non-transport missions.
A.3.b. Flight Gloves
Rotary-wing (R/W) flight crews shall wear gloves when engaged in all ground and flight operations.
Multi-engine fixed-wing (ME/F/W) flight crews shall wear gloves during all ground operations, takeoffs, and landings.
Mission-essential personnel and passengers should wear fire retardant flight gloves for operational, non-transport missions.
A.3.c. For R/W aircraft, aircrewmembers within close proximity to a turning rotor system, including persons being hoisted, shall wear a helmet.
Blah, blah... there's more, but that ought to cover most of what you need...
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 186
Likes: 0
From: Oz
Phoinix, I take it that you haven't had to deal much with bureaucrats?
They are the easiest people in the world to get money and resources out of if you know how to speak their language. And all you have to do to speak their language is to show them how it will be THEIR arse on the line if something goes wrong.
For example, you need Nomex flight suits.
You simply go into their office with a sheet of paper that says something along the lines of:
I (insert name of jelly bum bureaucrat who is currently refusing the money) have on this day of our lord XX/XX/XXX denied the funds necessary to equip our flight crews with Nomex flight suits that are necessary to reduce the risk of burn to our flightcrew in the event of an incident or accident, thus exposing the (insert jelly bumbs dept) to law suits if an accident happens.
(jelly bumbs signature line)
(witness signature line)
Now this is the best part, after the above you put the disclaimer below it as no jelly bum will EVER sign anything that puts his beaureacratic arse on the line, so you have something along the lines of the following after it...
(insert Jelly bimbs name) refused to sign this document and still refused to release funds for the purchase of necessary flight suits on the day XX/XX/XXXX of our lord.
(your signature block)
(Witness signature block)
So you hand him both pieces of paper and say the one above will be going to your union/lawyer whatever to be held in case you have an accident. Jelly bums usually mutter something along the lines of "you can't do that", and you say "well it is done By-the-way, if you sign this purchase authorisation (hand him the already fille dout copy), you can have this piece of paper.
No it is not blackmail as it is purely factual and you are not getting personal gain out of it. Also get your OH&S people onto this as well and get their support. I have found OH&S people can be an absolute pain in the butt, however they are useful for getting stuff like this through tight arsed jelly bums.
Good luck, and remember, you are on their turf but they do actually have rules they play by, and the jelly bumb no. 1 rule is: Make sure I am never responsible for anything. SO if you hand them the piece of paper above it makes them directly responsible for your wellbeing if something happens, they cannot stand this and so they sign the purchase order.
Have fun now! (I always have!)
Cheers
CB
They are the easiest people in the world to get money and resources out of if you know how to speak their language. And all you have to do to speak their language is to show them how it will be THEIR arse on the line if something goes wrong.
For example, you need Nomex flight suits.
You simply go into their office with a sheet of paper that says something along the lines of:
I (insert name of jelly bum bureaucrat who is currently refusing the money) have on this day of our lord XX/XX/XXX denied the funds necessary to equip our flight crews with Nomex flight suits that are necessary to reduce the risk of burn to our flightcrew in the event of an incident or accident, thus exposing the (insert jelly bumbs dept) to law suits if an accident happens.
(jelly bumbs signature line)
(witness signature line)
Now this is the best part, after the above you put the disclaimer below it as no jelly bum will EVER sign anything that puts his beaureacratic arse on the line, so you have something along the lines of the following after it...
(insert Jelly bimbs name) refused to sign this document and still refused to release funds for the purchase of necessary flight suits on the day XX/XX/XXXX of our lord.
(your signature block)
(Witness signature block)
So you hand him both pieces of paper and say the one above will be going to your union/lawyer whatever to be held in case you have an accident. Jelly bums usually mutter something along the lines of "you can't do that", and you say "well it is done By-the-way, if you sign this purchase authorisation (hand him the already fille dout copy), you can have this piece of paper.
No it is not blackmail as it is purely factual and you are not getting personal gain out of it. Also get your OH&S people onto this as well and get their support. I have found OH&S people can be an absolute pain in the butt, however they are useful for getting stuff like this through tight arsed jelly bums.
Good luck, and remember, you are on their turf but they do actually have rules they play by, and the jelly bumb no. 1 rule is: Make sure I am never responsible for anything. SO if you hand them the piece of paper above it makes them directly responsible for your wellbeing if something happens, they cannot stand this and so they sign the purchase order.
Have fun now! (I always have!)
Cheers
CB
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,081
Likes: 189
From: Redding CA, or on a fire somewhere
If you have problems justifying the cost--have them look here:
Aviation Protective Equipment Power Point Presentation
I will warn you---some of the slides show graphic injuries.
Aviation Protective Equipment Power Point Presentation
I will warn you---some of the slides show graphic injuries.
Joined: Aug 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 1,629
Likes: 206
From: SW England
...or the free Open Office equivalent, if you don't want any of your money going into Microsoft's coffers.
A quick Google will give you all the links and info you need to form your own opinion.
A quick Google will give you all the links and info you need to form your own opinion.
Great job! Thank you! Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 261
Likes: 0
From: Behind a dusty desk, and in some really hot, dusty, wet and cold places subject to who is paying the bill. But mostly Gods own land.
Health & Safety, "an employer is required to take all reasonable precautions to ensure the Heath and safety of an employee."
... so lets get this right, you bought a modern machine with crash survivability, but no one has pointed out that there is a risk of burns from, fuel, oil, grease, battery acid etc when the machine survives its crash or catches fire? Do you guys not need a SMS, or have you just not done a H&S risk assessment?
I bet you ware helmets because of the risk of being blinded when the duty Duck comes through the windscreen...same thing!
This doesn't need to go to ICAO , EASA or whateber references it's a basic duty of care issue.
... so lets get this right, you bought a modern machine with crash survivability, but no one has pointed out that there is a risk of burns from, fuel, oil, grease, battery acid etc when the machine survives its crash or catches fire? Do you guys not need a SMS, or have you just not done a H&S risk assessment?
I bet you ware helmets because of the risk of being blinded when the duty Duck comes through the windscreen...same thing!
This doesn't need to go to ICAO , EASA or whateber references it's a basic duty of care issue.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 646
Likes: 18
From: Europe
Almost nailed that one.
Being a police support unit, our uniforms (nomex) are very expensive compared to a standard law enforcement uniform, thus, we are the privileged, expensive guys that require too much. Once I was in a conversation with a head lady of logistics that told me: "Your professional responsibility is the same as catering cook's, she/he can also get burned while cooking, I can't see why should we get you the equipment before others." You can be sure I was like
It's never a problem buying multi milion € helicopter, it's the little things that are fought every single day, just getting the "tools" for work.
Helmets are a different thing, that I don't want to get into just now. The problem is in the pilots themselfs. It's somewhere in the vicinity of Calimero and it's too hot to fly with, we don't need them for other than NVG,...
We are slowly making progress from stonage, being the smartest unit ever...
Being a police support unit, our uniforms (nomex) are very expensive compared to a standard law enforcement uniform, thus, we are the privileged, expensive guys that require too much. Once I was in a conversation with a head lady of logistics that told me: "Your professional responsibility is the same as catering cook's, she/he can also get burned while cooking, I can't see why should we get you the equipment before others." You can be sure I was like
It's never a problem buying multi milion € helicopter, it's the little things that are fought every single day, just getting the "tools" for work.
Helmets are a different thing, that I don't want to get into just now. The problem is in the pilots themselfs. It's somewhere in the vicinity of Calimero and it's too hot to fly with, we don't need them for other than NVG,...
We are slowly making progress from stonage, being the smartest unit ever...
