Rescue choppers in the UK
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does anyone think the UK should use a couple of strategically placed ch53's for long distance offshore rescues solely? 1000 litres an hour for up to seven hours max?
If the arguement is that big metal is neccessary I cannot see why that type of machine is not represented to some degree
If the arguement is that big metal is neccessary I cannot see why that type of machine is not represented to some degree
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Dear Bolkow,
Whilst I fully appreciate that you have ownership on this thread as the originator, may I respectfully ask you to read back through your posts, slowly and out loud, and then hopefully you might understand why your inputs have been either criticised, ridiculed or very quickly quashed as unreasonable. It really isn't difficult to check through your post for typos and to make sure it makes sense before you press submit...(I'm sure you're now going to scrutinise mine for the same...feel free I'm sure you'll find something).
There are now some massively experienced SAR operators from around the world debating live issues using their background to provide real examples. If you have experience of your own to bring to the table then please do, but throwing in ill-considered, illogical and unpractical 'solutions' without providing supporting evidence will simply cause your thread to dissolve, like many SAR threads before, into a waste of bandwidth.
Just my opinion of course.
SW
Whilst I fully appreciate that you have ownership on this thread as the originator, may I respectfully ask you to read back through your posts, slowly and out loud, and then hopefully you might understand why your inputs have been either criticised, ridiculed or very quickly quashed as unreasonable. It really isn't difficult to check through your post for typos and to make sure it makes sense before you press submit...(I'm sure you're now going to scrutinise mine for the same...feel free I'm sure you'll find something).
There are now some massively experienced SAR operators from around the world debating live issues using their background to provide real examples. If you have experience of your own to bring to the table then please do, but throwing in ill-considered, illogical and unpractical 'solutions' without providing supporting evidence will simply cause your thread to dissolve, like many SAR threads before, into a waste of bandwidth.
Just my opinion of course.
SW
Last edited by Spanish Waltzer; 3rd Jun 2009 at 08:33.
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Spanish Waltzer, firstly if you go back to the beginning of this thread you will notice I posed a question, which was genuine, and designed to elicit more information from folk who responded to help me answer the question for myself. You seem to labour under the misconception that I already approached the question with a hard and fast view of my own, - well I did'nt. I merely posed a question to try answer something for myself that I have wondered about. To suggest I ought to have begun with all sorts of supporting evidence for a view I did not have makes little or no sense.
In this respect, IE: the scanario of air sea rescue, I did not pose as an expert in any way shape or form, so if you wish to discredit me in some way its a tad disengenious to try it on basis that I set myself up as any osrt of expert, -that is your mistake and yours alone.
Regarding typos, yeah, I am not a secretary or for that matter a typist, but had there been no typos it appears I'd still have had difficulty communication clearly with you. I'd suggest you correct your own more significant and fundamental errors about the nature of my post before you whine about less relevant typos?
In this respect, IE: the scanario of air sea rescue, I did not pose as an expert in any way shape or form, so if you wish to discredit me in some way its a tad disengenious to try it on basis that I set myself up as any osrt of expert, -that is your mistake and yours alone.
Regarding typos, yeah, I am not a secretary or for that matter a typist, but had there been no typos it appears I'd still have had difficulty communication clearly with you. I'd suggest you correct your own more significant and fundamental errors about the nature of my post before you whine about less relevant typos?
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Now you mention it, that rings quite true, I seem to remember only two in my memory off the west coast of Ireland. The only other time I have seen ch53's in Ireland was at the time of Ronal Regans State visit some years ago, when two flew in support of it.
Bolkow - hopefully you now understand that when you see the Sea King from Chivenor doing what seems like simple tasking that could be done by an air ambulance - it is because we are either the best asset for the job (based on the details of the initial 999 call) or the only available asset for the job (air ambulance tasked elsewhere).
Many times that we end up landing on a beach to pick up a casualty we have actually been launched because the report was of a person in the water/capsized dinghy/surfer etc) who the air ambulance cannot assist. By the time we get on scene the casualty has often been dragged from the water but still needs urgent medical assistance and rapid transport to hospital. To a casual observer it looks like an overkill response but better that way than to send an AA only to find the casualty still needs winching.
Your answer might be to fit winches to AA but that has so far proved to be a non-starter in UK for many reasons, not least of which is their non availability at night except into prepared sites (we can go anywhere - within reason - anytime). SAR helicopters are expensive whichever way you cut it and having more, smaller ones does not provide the economies of scale you are expecting, not least because then you need more crew who have to keep their skill-set with lots of training (and that costs loadsamoney).
Many times that we end up landing on a beach to pick up a casualty we have actually been launched because the report was of a person in the water/capsized dinghy/surfer etc) who the air ambulance cannot assist. By the time we get on scene the casualty has often been dragged from the water but still needs urgent medical assistance and rapid transport to hospital. To a casual observer it looks like an overkill response but better that way than to send an AA only to find the casualty still needs winching.
Your answer might be to fit winches to AA but that has so far proved to be a non-starter in UK for many reasons, not least of which is their non availability at night except into prepared sites (we can go anywhere - within reason - anytime). SAR helicopters are expensive whichever way you cut it and having more, smaller ones does not provide the economies of scale you are expecting, not least because then you need more crew who have to keep their skill-set with lots of training (and that costs loadsamoney).
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to be honest crab your arguement and points are well put and I accept them fully. In some respects it reminds me of a time when I was a young lad and the local harbour acquired a state of the art lifeboat costing a considerable sum. I remarked to a lifeboatman that it was a lot of money for something which in those days exercised once every three weeks and perhaps twice in a few months saved a life.
He responded that as far as he is concerned its paid for itself fully after the first life is saved, and everything after that was profit. That remark stayed with me and i guess I have my answer from yourself. many thanks for your patience!
He responded that as far as he is concerned its paid for itself fully after the first life is saved, and everything after that was profit. That remark stayed with me and i guess I have my answer from yourself. many thanks for your patience!
Have to add my five cents worth,
412 bringing in MRTs is a joke? We do it often and it works - of course it would be better to have bigger machine, but on distances we are operating with, a second flight might solve the problem. Small cabin in 412 - my knees are sore sometimes, but some padding helps alot and doctors like it much more than A-109Power or EC-135 as they can at least move around a little...
From what I have seen in the UK and many other places my heart goes with Aussies - a right mix of fleet and capabilities to meet the demand.
In Europe -yes, hoisting in Alps is done with A-109K2 in Switzerland and EC-135 with hoist can be seen in south Germany, Italy, etc. but for my taste, these helicopters are simply too small for such type of operation. (You cannot bring hoisted person inside A-109 - must land first!) but they are the cheapest one to do the job. You need at least four ton class helicopter for decent hoist operation.
What is important is the care for the patient, that is bringing EMS specialists TO THE PATIENT and not rushing him to the hospital, that might be an hour or more away - and here Crab, your excellent SAR service lags behind many others. Dividing SAR from HEMS is simply a nonsense! I know it, I am fighting for merger of these in my country too - as we also can feel "SAR is military, HEMS is civillian!" problem. Add on this "Search for missing persons is police task" plus "HEMS is Health/doctors domain" and a mess is complete! Trying to bring two ministries together is difficult, bringing Defese ministry, Home Office and Ministry of health behind one table and asking them to merge current services or create a dedicated one or whatever else that would solve the problem, looks like mission impossible. But it is the only reasonable way forward, anything else is just keeping status quo.
Talking about costs - 5000 pounds per hour of SK tells you nothing. You have to take in account all costs and you will find out that costs are much higher, but spread in many items. Majority of air rescue costs are fixed - depreciation, salaries, training, insurance etc. Variable costs are created only when rotors are turning - and I can assure you,that these are mostly dwarfed by fixed costs. Recently I had a chance to run a roundtable on future of air rescue in my country. There was a lot of talking that this is an expensive service and it is difficult to get it to higher level, (more bases, night capability etc). So I asked the most responsible persons of my country how much our current air rescue system cost our taxpayers/insurees, and guess what? Nobody could tell. The only thing that is known is hourly charge for 412 (provided by police or military) that covers variable costs. (approx. 1300 EUR)
By not knowing basics you can manage nothing!
Bolkow, I am afraid your "5000 poud per hour would pay for many EC 135" argument is just a guesswork.
Regards,
hoistop
412 bringing in MRTs is a joke? We do it often and it works - of course it would be better to have bigger machine, but on distances we are operating with, a second flight might solve the problem. Small cabin in 412 - my knees are sore sometimes, but some padding helps alot and doctors like it much more than A-109Power or EC-135 as they can at least move around a little...
From what I have seen in the UK and many other places my heart goes with Aussies - a right mix of fleet and capabilities to meet the demand.
In Europe -yes, hoisting in Alps is done with A-109K2 in Switzerland and EC-135 with hoist can be seen in south Germany, Italy, etc. but for my taste, these helicopters are simply too small for such type of operation. (You cannot bring hoisted person inside A-109 - must land first!) but they are the cheapest one to do the job. You need at least four ton class helicopter for decent hoist operation.
What is important is the care for the patient, that is bringing EMS specialists TO THE PATIENT and not rushing him to the hospital, that might be an hour or more away - and here Crab, your excellent SAR service lags behind many others. Dividing SAR from HEMS is simply a nonsense! I know it, I am fighting for merger of these in my country too - as we also can feel "SAR is military, HEMS is civillian!" problem. Add on this "Search for missing persons is police task" plus "HEMS is Health/doctors domain" and a mess is complete! Trying to bring two ministries together is difficult, bringing Defese ministry, Home Office and Ministry of health behind one table and asking them to merge current services or create a dedicated one or whatever else that would solve the problem, looks like mission impossible. But it is the only reasonable way forward, anything else is just keeping status quo.
Talking about costs - 5000 pounds per hour of SK tells you nothing. You have to take in account all costs and you will find out that costs are much higher, but spread in many items. Majority of air rescue costs are fixed - depreciation, salaries, training, insurance etc. Variable costs are created only when rotors are turning - and I can assure you,that these are mostly dwarfed by fixed costs. Recently I had a chance to run a roundtable on future of air rescue in my country. There was a lot of talking that this is an expensive service and it is difficult to get it to higher level, (more bases, night capability etc). So I asked the most responsible persons of my country how much our current air rescue system cost our taxpayers/insurees, and guess what? Nobody could tell. The only thing that is known is hourly charge for 412 (provided by police or military) that covers variable costs. (approx. 1300 EUR)
By not knowing basics you can manage nothing!
Bolkow, I am afraid your "5000 poud per hour would pay for many EC 135" argument is just a guesswork.
Regards,
hoistop
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rescue choppers in the uk
I did state that the £1000 per hour was for a police operation using an ec135 t2+.
On reflection I appreciate that for air sea rescue availabilty 24 hours round the clock the figure might neccessarily have to be higher as the amount of personnel I imagine would be higher for a start. All that I am saying is that in one type of operation it can be operated for that amount, I think some of crabs points illustrate to me that in different applications the ancillarly costs in addition to the machine might make the cost significantly higher.
On reflection I appreciate that for air sea rescue availabilty 24 hours round the clock the figure might neccessarily have to be higher as the amount of personnel I imagine would be higher for a start. All that I am saying is that in one type of operation it can be operated for that amount, I think some of crabs points illustrate to me that in different applications the ancillarly costs in addition to the machine might make the cost significantly higher.
Hoiststop - our winchmen are very well trained in Emergency Medicine - they are fully paramedic qualified. There is no point taking an ER doctor to a scene when the casualty is in a precarious position (cliff, deck, in the water etc) when they need to be rescued first and treated second. Hospital staff are often a liability in these situations because they are so far out of their comfort zone they become another casualty.
More often than not, you are within 30 mins of a hospital in the UK and the most significant delay getting the casualty to definitive care is usually waiting for the ambulance at the HLS.
So, although I take your points, I really don't think that we 'lag' behind others in the UK SAR world and trying to combine SAR and HEMS just wouldn't work, they are different jobs, albeit with some significant overlap on occasions.
It would be interesting to know how others would have dealt with the 29 stone (406lbs or 184 kg) patient my boss was faced with the other week. Including the trolley he was on, the combined weight was an estimated 500lbs (227kgs) and it took 10 people to lift him into the aircraft! Try doing that in a HEMS helicopter!!
They had to borrow sheets of plywood from the building site next door use spread the load of the 4 small trolley wheels on the cabin floor!
More often than not, you are within 30 mins of a hospital in the UK and the most significant delay getting the casualty to definitive care is usually waiting for the ambulance at the HLS.
So, although I take your points, I really don't think that we 'lag' behind others in the UK SAR world and trying to combine SAR and HEMS just wouldn't work, they are different jobs, albeit with some significant overlap on occasions.
It would be interesting to know how others would have dealt with the 29 stone (406lbs or 184 kg) patient my boss was faced with the other week. Including the trolley he was on, the combined weight was an estimated 500lbs (227kgs) and it took 10 people to lift him into the aircraft! Try doing that in a HEMS helicopter!!
They had to borrow sheets of plywood from the building site next door use spread the load of the 4 small trolley wheels on the cabin floor!
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It would be interesting to know how others would have dealt with the 29 stone (406lbs or 184 kg) patient my boss was faced with the other week. Including the trolley he was on, the combined weight was an estimated 500lbs (227kgs) and it took 10 people to lift him into the aircraft! Try doing that in a HEMS helicopter!! They had to borrow sheets of plywood from the building site next door use spread the load of the 4 small trolley wheels on the cabin floor!
Simple really with the right aircraft!
Wiretensioner
Wiretensioner - that settles it - we'll ring you when we get the next one
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If a squirrel costs a grand an hour to hire, they are making profit, that is what they do. A 135 would not cost that much (we bill around 700 to other forces), however a 135 that has an engine failure with a chap on the wire would be interesting. In the summer, we hover OGE with 3 POB and are pulling max continuous. Air ambos can pick up the easy ones, let SAR have BIG toys with plenty of kit to do the tough ones!!
Oh, so you just don't have the range to do Swansea to Dumfries then