British police helicopter attacked on ground
Valve Guide
the fence was built a million years ago and was not security for the helicopter .... it just impeded access for spotters who then went 50 yards down to the gap. In truth there was no real security in place, it was not needed. The pad was a 50 yard dash from the hangar.... hold back for the Piper on the intersecting peritrack before you cross...
There are difficulties on this site. Building a fence etc near the helipad brings in all sorts of issues ... clear area is lost and as a result performance ....
Historically Fairoaks was fine.... as long as policing was being undertaken with the consent of the people. Now we have people who do not consent and play by the same rules and parking £5M of helicopter in the open is not on anymore.
First time [last October] may have been a glitch.
Second is serious. uhoh:
New plan required.
the fence was built a million years ago and was not security for the helicopter .... it just impeded access for spotters who then went 50 yards down to the gap. In truth there was no real security in place, it was not needed. The pad was a 50 yard dash from the hangar.... hold back for the Piper on the intersecting peritrack before you cross...
There are difficulties on this site. Building a fence etc near the helipad brings in all sorts of issues ... clear area is lost and as a result performance ....
Historically Fairoaks was fine.... as long as policing was being undertaken with the consent of the people. Now we have people who do not consent and play by the same rules and parking £5M of helicopter in the open is not on anymore.
First time [last October] may have been a glitch.
Second is serious. uhoh:
New plan required.
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Originally Posted by tonkaplonka
Why can't they park the thing on a miltary base. Surely must be somewhere nearby. That's what the PSNI do at Aldergrove
On the other hand there might just be a lack of suitable facilities, so who knows?
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Whether it's traffic or major Crime there is strong support for the notion that the thing that stops people killing people, committing white collar crimes, burgling homes, speeding, or just about anything wrong (maybe with the exception of using ice or speed) remains the liklihood of being caught and punished.
Yes, I know this leads to a whole new argument about motivation to get street plods and detectives out there catching crooks and visible police presence..... AND separate argument about crime and appropriate punishment AND separate argument about racial ethnic or religious profiling.
The great 70's UK experiment of centralized policing from large blue citadels robbed people world wide of local street level intelligence. But it was easier to administer. The "local police" were displaced into giant hiding castles and soon lost touch with what crooks were where and doing what to whom. A dispatch car would be sent to respond to local crimes without any local ownership of the patch. A collator and analyst would then put all the crimes together in a bundle and hope that someone came up with a whisper about who the crooks were to pin the crime to.
Mums and Dads and punters in general, lost confidence in the police forces all over ages ago when they lost contact with "their" local plods. The notion of parking your police helicopter resource in a military compound is another symptom of the loss of public confidence police have suffered.
To me it looks like someone ought to get about funding a definitive study on the effects of Air Support units with regards to crime prevention. If the job is achieving measurable results - all the crap regarding DOC's, staffing, worth and joy rides, becomes irrelevent. It may also be a way to identify best use of the resource.
IMHO
DD
Yes, I know this leads to a whole new argument about motivation to get street plods and detectives out there catching crooks and visible police presence..... AND separate argument about crime and appropriate punishment AND separate argument about racial ethnic or religious profiling.
The great 70's UK experiment of centralized policing from large blue citadels robbed people world wide of local street level intelligence. But it was easier to administer. The "local police" were displaced into giant hiding castles and soon lost touch with what crooks were where and doing what to whom. A dispatch car would be sent to respond to local crimes without any local ownership of the patch. A collator and analyst would then put all the crimes together in a bundle and hope that someone came up with a whisper about who the crooks were to pin the crime to.
Mums and Dads and punters in general, lost confidence in the police forces all over ages ago when they lost contact with "their" local plods. The notion of parking your police helicopter resource in a military compound is another symptom of the loss of public confidence police have suffered.
To me it looks like someone ought to get about funding a definitive study on the effects of Air Support units with regards to crime prevention. If the job is achieving measurable results - all the crap regarding DOC's, staffing, worth and joy rides, becomes irrelevent. It may also be a way to identify best use of the resource.
IMHO
DD
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asu fairoakes
just a note the true costs of operating a police helicopter of any type is as long as a piece of string , and whilst we need them and they do a great service , it is not possible to purchase a new aircraft fund it over say ten years ?? doing 800/1000 hrs per year 1/2 crew ?? etc etc etc for less than £2000, + per hour air-born in fact i know its not ,you cant quote the doc + fuel , id be surprised if the true cost was not nearer to £3000/£4000 as stated but that not to say its not good value but it helps to fund these things if you know the true costs , i know it will still be going in 10/20 yrs but you have to write the cost off in a reasonable period and anything left is a bonus and you dont get may of them in rotary do you helispeed iii
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A £5 million helicopter, financed at a flat rate of 5% per annum over 5 years but operated for ten years (assuming 1,000 flying hours a year) would cost £640 an hour. Crewing (3 no.), on the same number of hours per annum (including NI and pension) would be around £150 to £200 an hour. A good approximation for any business in estimating overheads is to double the staffing cost i.e. another £150 to £200 an hour to pay for the running of the ASU.
On top of this add maintenance and fuel but I'm struggling to get to £3,000-£4,000 an hour.
Cheers
Whirls
On top of this add maintenance and fuel but I'm struggling to get to £3,000-£4,000 an hour.
Cheers
Whirls
Avoid imitations
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The crews, pilots apart, were surely already part of the establishment.
They would still have been there, in a patrol car or on the beat, if there was no ASU.
So should they really be included in the "extra" manpower cost of the unit?
They would still have been there, in a patrol car or on the beat, if there was no ASU.
So should they really be included in the "extra" manpower cost of the unit?
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You're asking for marginal costing now eh? Gee, me fag packet ain't that big.
OK, you can add back £100 to £133 for the two police observers who would otherwise be employed elsewhere in the force but then you may also need to add on the cost of their patrol car etc.
Cheers
Whirls
OK, you can add back £100 to £133 for the two police observers who would otherwise be employed elsewhere in the force but then you may also need to add on the cost of their patrol car etc.
Cheers
Whirls
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asu fairoakes
dear whirls thanks for your imput but a new police helicopter is probally nearer to £6 million + with the equipment on board also what about admin staff premises rates landing fees? and be fair its quite difficult to borrow at 5% even with base rates where they are i still think the true costs are more than £3k per hour but with creative accountants you can make the cost as low as you want, im talking about true costs !, you may remember that the met police asu running 222 went bankupt if i remember correctly , as i said its as long as apiece of string cheers whirls three greens to you helispeed iii
Police Helicopter Purchases
Helispeed111 You are way out! The Current cost of a fully role equipped EC135 is just a bit over £5m. But with bulk purchases which has now become the norm, the price per unit is nearer £4.7m. From that you need to deduct Home Office grant aid towards the purchase which can amount to a tidy sum. That and the resale value of the old aircraft being replaced, will often mean that the actual amount of new money that the Police Authority have to find to effect the purchase of the new machine is in the region of £2m. Not such a bad deal after all.
The Home Office have run the grant scheme since about 1993, encouraging Forces to develope UK Police air support into one of the most efficient services of its type in the world. Do you seriously believe that they would have gone on doing that over the years if the service and its effectiveness was as bad as you suggest.
The real targets have been the persistant vehicle thief, the mugger and the burglar. The days of the Ram raid are now much less. Vehicle pursuits tend to be much shorter and as a result far safer for the public, and the mugger and burglar stand a much better chance of getting caught.
The projected cost per hour of about £1,200 is a realistic figure given all of the other factors that apply to Police aviation. Against that must be put the cost of serious injury and indeed loss of life that the police aircraft often prevents.
There will always be the armchair expert who has never felt a collar, or never felt the frustration of seeing a reckless criminal in someones else's car get away scott free. Well I have, and I can tell you that the advent of rapidly available air support to the bobby on the ground is one of the best things that happened to policing. The secret is in its immediacy though and rapidly drops off if the distance to be flown to reach the scene is too great. The danger units face today is from the "Expert" who believes that by drawing circles on a map he can reduce coverage & save money. Usually the expert has forgotten that unlike a map the reality is that terrain can be lumpy and stuffed with hills and weather in the UK is not always bright & sunny.
Tigerfish (Ol Grumpy)
The Home Office have run the grant scheme since about 1993, encouraging Forces to develope UK Police air support into one of the most efficient services of its type in the world. Do you seriously believe that they would have gone on doing that over the years if the service and its effectiveness was as bad as you suggest.
The real targets have been the persistant vehicle thief, the mugger and the burglar. The days of the Ram raid are now much less. Vehicle pursuits tend to be much shorter and as a result far safer for the public, and the mugger and burglar stand a much better chance of getting caught.
The projected cost per hour of about £1,200 is a realistic figure given all of the other factors that apply to Police aviation. Against that must be put the cost of serious injury and indeed loss of life that the police aircraft often prevents.
There will always be the armchair expert who has never felt a collar, or never felt the frustration of seeing a reckless criminal in someones else's car get away scott free. Well I have, and I can tell you that the advent of rapidly available air support to the bobby on the ground is one of the best things that happened to policing. The secret is in its immediacy though and rapidly drops off if the distance to be flown to reach the scene is too great. The danger units face today is from the "Expert" who believes that by drawing circles on a map he can reduce coverage & save money. Usually the expert has forgotten that unlike a map the reality is that terrain can be lumpy and stuffed with hills and weather in the UK is not always bright & sunny.
Tigerfish (Ol Grumpy)
Last edited by tigerfish; 19th May 2009 at 12:13.
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Helispeediii, I didn't pluck the figure of £5m out of thin air; it was a best estimate (actually based on an EC135 from Eurocopter's website with an allowance of £750k for equipment) and on the pessimistic side in order to make my point. A flat rate of 5% is probably equivalent to an APR of 10-11%; easily obtainable in a business environment.
As I said,
What do you think overheads are?
OK, I omitted landing fees but many ASUs will not have to pay for these.
If somebody would care to let me know the maintenance schedules and spares costs, I can finish the rest of the costings if you like. Fuel costs are straightforward.
Cheers
Whirls
what about admin staff premises rates
A good approximation for any business in estimating overheads is to double the staffing cost i.e. another £150 to £200 an hour to pay for the running of the ASU.
OK, I omitted landing fees but many ASUs will not have to pay for these.
If somebody would care to let me know the maintenance schedules and spares costs, I can finish the rest of the costings if you like. Fuel costs are straightforward.
Cheers
Whirls
Running costs!
Helispeediii. And I also forgot to say,- that you are also way out on the running costs! Very few units have any admin staff. The UEO, Chief Pilot and observers do all that themselves when not flying. The Pilot of course is an additional cost factor but not the Police crew who would be paid anyway whatever duties they were forforming. Some units do pay landing fees but have usually negotiated a special and favourable rate given that their ops are in the public interest. Fuel is purchased on a bulk purchasing scheme and again probably well below what you might have to pay.
All in all we get a pretty good deal from our ASU's. Remember they rarely do any routine patrols, but can occasionally be used for crime supression when required. Under normal circumstances pretty well every flight is in response to someone else's distress or in response to a sudden serious incident that the duty crew realise is one that the A/C can respond too and make a difference too.
The fact that the Surrey machine has been attacked on two occasions is more, I would submit, in reponse to its effectiveness than anything else!
Tigerfish ( Now even grumpier )
All in all we get a pretty good deal from our ASU's. Remember they rarely do any routine patrols, but can occasionally be used for crime supression when required. Under normal circumstances pretty well every flight is in response to someone else's distress or in response to a sudden serious incident that the duty crew realise is one that the A/C can respond too and make a difference too.
The fact that the Surrey machine has been attacked on two occasions is more, I would submit, in reponse to its effectiveness than anything else!
Tigerfish ( Now even grumpier )
Last edited by tigerfish; 19th May 2009 at 18:43.
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asu fairoakes
dear tigerfish +whirls im not against police helicopters in any shape or form, im just stating what i think is the true costs , your quote not mine ec 135 with grants cost police £1200 ph and only have to pay £2 mill for it thats great but the rest of the money has to come from somwhere eg us tax payers , who do you think pays for the cheap fuel oil companies or other users my figures were based on a md 902 type, and i think two on to one is a bit unfair regards helispeed iii
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"Remember they do no do any routine patrols"
The South Wales one does.
The South Wales one does.
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asu fairoakes
tarman i have done as you suggest but medivac and no i did not make a fortune 
which is why i still think the true costs are 3/4 k ph, the matenance / was roughly twice what the manufacturer quoted , why dont you tender at say 2k ph and see if you make a profit , can i just make it clear, im not saying the police pay this rate im saying this is a realistic figure to make a profit !think about the cost of providing a replacement aircraft when yours is off line which you would almost certainly have to do if you were in a contract with someone like the police regards helispeeiii
which is why i still think the true costs are 3/4 k ph, the matenance / was roughly twice what the manufacturer quoted , why dont you tender at say 2k ph and see if you make a profit , can i just make it clear, im not saying the police pay this rate im saying this is a realistic figure to make a profit !think about the cost of providing a replacement aircraft when yours is off line which you would almost certainly have to do if you were in a contract with someone like the police regards helispeeiii
Helispeediii,
The police are not in this game to make a profit - under a PAOC we cannot raise money by flying anything other than police missions. Replacement aircraft?? - there are no "Spare" police 135's, if the aircraft is off line then we are reliant on mutual support which is why several police units are either in formal or "loose" consortia. As for maintenance costs, most, but not all police units are under SBH and PBH contracts.
The police are not in this game to make a profit - under a PAOC we cannot raise money by flying anything other than police missions. Replacement aircraft?? - there are no "Spare" police 135's, if the aircraft is off line then we are reliant on mutual support which is why several police units are either in formal or "loose" consortia. As for maintenance costs, most, but not all police units are under SBH and PBH contracts.
Generally a good accurate post, Fortyodd2, although I think Strathclyde and S Wales might take issue with your:
... their contracts have provision for the contractor to provide a spare 135 to cover both forecast and (within contract-defined time limits) un-forecast periods where the primary aircraft is offline.
there are no "Spare" police 135's
Maintenance
What many ordinary general aviation people do not appreciate is the level of co-operation that we have acheived here in the UK.
When one machine is off line for either scheduled or unsheduled maintenance the surrounding units will cover for their absence. Whilst not universal this is generally provided on a no fee "You scratch my back etc etc "basis. ( There will always be exceptions ) Where fees do come in, is where a service is requested by a force which does not not have its own air cover as a normal facility ) But this is rare.
All UK units although truly independant of each other work closely with each other. This applies whatever aircraft type each unit operates. Its the Police task that is most important. The cost to the maintenance providor of having a spare role equipped machine available would be prohibitive and would have to be passed on to the customer. That is why the current mutual aid system evolved.
Remember UK Police aviation has evolved now steadily for over 25 years. It is one of the most sophisticated and effective of its type in the world. I am now long retired but still connected. I am extreemly proud of what our lads & lasses have acheived.
Tigerfish
When one machine is off line for either scheduled or unsheduled maintenance the surrounding units will cover for their absence. Whilst not universal this is generally provided on a no fee "You scratch my back etc etc "basis. ( There will always be exceptions ) Where fees do come in, is where a service is requested by a force which does not not have its own air cover as a normal facility ) But this is rare.
All UK units although truly independant of each other work closely with each other. This applies whatever aircraft type each unit operates. Its the Police task that is most important. The cost to the maintenance providor of having a spare role equipped machine available would be prohibitive and would have to be passed on to the customer. That is why the current mutual aid system evolved.
Remember UK Police aviation has evolved now steadily for over 25 years. It is one of the most sophisticated and effective of its type in the world. I am now long retired but still connected. I am extreemly proud of what our lads & lasses have acheived.
Tigerfish