Are there "new" rules re leasing ?

[nigelh]

Having operated helicopters for some years now both aoc and lease , i wondered if anybody knows if there is ,or has been , a rule change which would now make leasing illegal ? I have always had the thumbs up from the caa, who have given me certain guidelines, but my emails to them asking if their advice is now different have gone unanswered . I presume that this would also make sfh illegal if you are renting ? I dont want to get into the old aoc v lease debate ....just an answer and pointing to the relevant new law. Many thanks.

[krypton_john]

Well, Nigel, you are in the UK and it involves helicopters so naturally it is illegal and completely banned already.

I'm surprised you didn't know this.

[nigelh]

Krypto i must take issue with you there ...you are wrong . Some forms of helicopter flying are still just legal in this country , subject to conditions and availability and paying off the correct people . these little pockets of legal flying are now under attack from easa so in a few months you will probably be correct.

[aseanaero]

Indonesia and leased airliners

In Indonesia they're bringing out a rule by 2010 (from memory) that an airline must have 10 aircraft to hold an AOC and that 5 of them must be owned by the airline (the other 5 may be leased).

What the logic is behind this I haven't figured out yet. Probably to make sure that start ups have some 'skin in the game' and make it more difficult for chicken farmers or banana plantation owners to start up airlines rather than waking up one morning and deciding to lease a bunch of aircraft and start an airline on a whim.

Maybe what you heard is a similar UK proposal for heli operators ?

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[krypton_john]

Don't worry Nigel. When that day comes you can always move to Godzone, where they'll let pretty much anyone fly pretty much anything pretty much anywhere.

[mini]

"In Indonesia they're bringing out a rule by 2010 (from memory) that an airline must have 10 aircraft to hold an AOC and that 5 of them must be owned by the airline (the other 5 may be leased).

What the logic is behind this I haven't figured out yet. Probably to make sure that start ups have some 'skin in the game' and make it more difficult for chicken farmers or banana plantation owners to start up airlines rather than waking up one morning and deciding to lease a bunch of aircraft and start an airline on a whim.

Maybe what you heard is a similar UK proposal for heli operators ?"

If so, that's going to set the entry bar scary high... the huge working capital requirement at startup keeps many out of the industry, add mandatory fleet purchase into the equation... Oh Dear.

That's me definitely out then

I think the financial implications of such a move would be best discussed by someone more qualified than I.

Psst, Whirls... are you lurking per chance?

[nigelh]

I am not saying that lease flying IS now illegal , just that i heard there were moves to try to stop it . if that means n reg machines and ppls being targeted thats fine by me but most are done by g reg machines flown by cpl,s who also fly for aoc,s and freelance . So long as the paperwork is correct i assume it is still ok and most of the customers/operators have been doing it for many years . If true it will affect flying clubs, sfh and shared ownership . Is there any evidence that it is any less safe than aoc ?

[JulieAndrews]

ANO v Leasing

I thought this old chesnut had been put to bed a while ago but CAA have informed me that they are now 're-visiting' the issue - where a private individual or company hires a G-reg aircraft to a private individual or company for a period of time or set number of flying hours etc etc.

The Lessee, acting as the Operator, then hires a pilot to fly them on a 'private' basis. This pilot is not legally obliged to carry them etc.
CAA are saying this would count as illegal Public Transport but as yet waiting for test case.

Owner of aircraft does not profit from lease if you consider how much is spent on the aircraft re maintenance/hangarage etc v hours flown.
Aircraft leased to a couple of individuals as a business tool.

I'm all to aware that there are numerous wordy leases doing the rounds but would like to discuss matter with suitably experienced legal bod to review our lease documentation against latest ANO.

Can anyone suggest such a person?

[Hughes500]

Was once told by a legal bod the following :
1. It is not illegal for Joe Bloggs to hire a helicopter
2. It is not illegal for Joe Bloggs to buy fuel for said helicopter
3. It is not illegal for Joe Bloggs to hire a commerical pilot to fly said helicopter

Providing they are all done seperately. The CAA will say that Joe Bloggs is not the operator as he is not capable of being an operator and therefore the pilot is the operator and therefore breaking the law. However this would not be the case as the pilot is using his licence for hire and reward as he has not personally hired the helicopter. The Caa I believe has recently lost the case on this basis over The NRA hiring a heli for a river survey and hiring a pilot to fly it.
Well thats as clear as mud !!!

[nigelh]

I am very happy for them to make me there test case I have been doing leases for , on and off , 25 years with 1) No complaint from any client / operator 2) No complaint from the CAA who have been furnished with all the details of what i do and have been asked numerous times to let me know if there is ANY aspect of what i do that may be illegal / grey area . I have confirmation from them that all i need to do is maintain the aircraft to PT standard . I have made it quite clear to them that there silence is in effect a confirmation that there is nothing illegal . If there were , they would have contacted me once over the last 20 years wouldnt you think
I have sent an email to 3 different CAA officers over the last 2 months and only got my first reply when i said i assumed they had all been made redundant as no one is flying now !!!
I think it is just the AOC,s making a fuss as they have to live by rules that appear to be thought up by lunatics and pay a fortune for the privilege .....and who can blame them !!!!!
The sooner we get an AOC "Light" , ie something that a small operator can actually live with , the sooner some sanity will prevail ...but you have 2 hopes of that in CAA Land ....Bob ...and NO