Be careful with doors that open in flight!
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Closing a bubble door in a bell medium while in flight is sometimes not an easy task. Many Bells require 2 hands to close the door when sitting on the ground, never mind while in flight. In flight the bubble act like a wing and at 60-80 kts the door sits 25-30 cm open and stays there.
Your speed in most bells needs to be less than 40 kts to get the center latch to close. If you also want the top latch to close, the airspeed needs to be very low, uncomfortably low for no hands flying anyway.
At 20 ish kts, one hand on the latch, body leaning and twisting so you can get the other hand on the strap to pull in the top of the door, cyclic between your knees....problem is when you twist to look up at the top latch and struggle with it for a few seconds its easy to loose peripheral vision of the horizon. With no hands on the cyclic and no eyes on the horizon the nose comes up pretty quick. Look forward and see nothing but sky grab the cyclic in a panic.....
We will never know exactly what happened that day, could have been a medical issue...could have been some variation of the above.
The door closure system in many types of helicopters just plain suck when you think about it.
Your speed in most bells needs to be less than 40 kts to get the center latch to close. If you also want the top latch to close, the airspeed needs to be very low, uncomfortably low for no hands flying anyway.
At 20 ish kts, one hand on the latch, body leaning and twisting so you can get the other hand on the strap to pull in the top of the door, cyclic between your knees....problem is when you twist to look up at the top latch and struggle with it for a few seconds its easy to loose peripheral vision of the horizon. With no hands on the cyclic and no eyes on the horizon the nose comes up pretty quick. Look forward and see nothing but sky grab the cyclic in a panic.....
We will never know exactly what happened that day, could have been a medical issue...could have been some variation of the above.
The door closure system in many types of helicopters just plain suck when you think about it.
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Beyond belief. I've flown in the Gulf of Mexico in aircraft with 25000+hrs and doors popping open is a common occurrence. I am not sure about the bubble window, but in 206B's and LongRangers there is no need to panic (unless you did not clean up loose items in the back), just slow down to 40-60kts, put in some opposite pedal and slam it shut. If it does not latch, still no need to panic the slipstream will keep it from opening too far, proceed to landing site and close it on the ground.
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MD500-series
During the type-rating course for the MD500 I was actually tought how to handle the door-pop situation in that kind of helicopter. It just won't close until you're down to about 50 kts. It just stays about 15 degrees open at speeds above that, and you just can't get it shut.
Procedure was actually tested and practised as well. Good type rating instructor!
Procedure was actually tested and practised as well. Good type rating instructor!
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Took off a couple of times with my door unlatched in a 412, tired, careless, overheated and overworked,(but happy 
). Surreptitiously shut door in climb, no problem.
Had a right door open in a Hughes/Schweiser/Sikorski/whatever /369/500 which at 135knots, with three hours on type, solo, in marginal weather, somewhere in England, did concentrate the mind a little.Fortunately the wee racing pigeon is quite easy to slow down to 60ish and long arms and lots of multi tasking at cocktail parties provided the necessary skill level to wrestle it closed . The subsequent openings every time we went faster than the door opening imp was prepared to tolerate were quite anti-climatic.
I am very sorry that the distraction of an open door should apparently lead to such an accident, but what a reminder to us all that whatever else is going on FLY THE ALLITERATIVE AIRCRAFT.
). Surreptitiously shut door in climb, no problem.Had a right door open in a Hughes/Schweiser/Sikorski/whatever /369/500 which at 135knots, with three hours on type, solo, in marginal weather, somewhere in England, did concentrate the mind a little.Fortunately the wee racing pigeon is quite easy to slow down to 60ish and long arms and lots of multi tasking at cocktail parties provided the necessary skill level to wrestle it closed . The subsequent openings every time we went faster than the door opening imp was prepared to tolerate were quite anti-climatic.
I am very sorry that the distraction of an open door should apparently lead to such an accident, but what a reminder to us all that whatever else is going on FLY THE ALLITERATIVE AIRCRAFT.
Such an accident killed a Lama pilot a few years ago in Switzerland. After a door opening in flight the pilots coat flew out and into the tail rotor.
There are no new really accidents, unfortunately!
There are no new really accidents, unfortunately!
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ok guys, setting myself up for a fall here I am sure, but I cannot work out the physics of a normal Bell door flying open at 50+knots? The slipstream surely holds it in place?
I can see how a bubble door with its slightly odd characteristic could cause a pressure that could suck it outwards, but a normal door in a 206?
I have never (and don't intend) to open a door mid flight, but just sticking your hand out of the window is enough to tell me that the slipstream even at 40 knots would hold most things firmly in place if you are in trim?
Are you all saying the doors pop fully open? or just open a tad then slam /bang? If they fully open up I need to go and consult my physics book again? Does the slipstream get underneath them or something?
Thought I would ask before I ask for a complete refit of all the 206 locks on my doors with thousands of hours on!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (They seem to be harder to close than open because they are so bent out of shape!)
Cheers Phil, without seeing this on Pprune I would never have even considered the concept of one of the doors flying open! Need more hours for the experience!
I can see how a bubble door with its slightly odd characteristic could cause a pressure that could suck it outwards, but a normal door in a 206?
I have never (and don't intend) to open a door mid flight, but just sticking your hand out of the window is enough to tell me that the slipstream even at 40 knots would hold most things firmly in place if you are in trim?
Are you all saying the doors pop fully open? or just open a tad then slam /bang? If they fully open up I need to go and consult my physics book again? Does the slipstream get underneath them or something?
Thought I would ask before I ask for a complete refit of all the 206 locks on my doors with thousands of hours on!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (They seem to be harder to close than open because they are so bent out of shape!)
Cheers Phil, without seeing this on Pprune I would never have even considered the concept of one of the doors flying open! Need more hours for the experience!
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The door doesn't flap, or stick right out.
The door acts like a blade/wing, the more pronounced the bubble is, the further open it will be, most of the doors I have had open up on me,just come ajar by a few inches, as the slip stream wont allow it to open too far, but also wont allow you to close it very easy either, hence slowing down and kicking in the pedal or landing if possible.
Its no big deal really, unless things start flying out.
The door acts like a blade/wing, the more pronounced the bubble is, the further open it will be, most of the doors I have had open up on me,just come ajar by a few inches, as the slip stream wont allow it to open too far, but also wont allow you to close it very easy either, hence slowing down and kicking in the pedal or landing if possible.
Its no big deal really, unless things start flying out.
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rotorspin
Think high and low pressure areas - that's alleged to be why the door stays open a modest amount until down to @60kts IAS or less. By modest amount an SK76 door will be open @3-4" at 140 knots. It's not so much the amount the door is open that generates a thread but the explosive nature of it doing its thing that garners the attention; that and the fact that the only way on that aircraft to get it closed is to slow down, a lot. Not great fun when IMC, but doable.
I never really had a problem with this until flying the BH222 and SK76 - suspect it was self induced by not paying proper attention to closing/locking doors!
Seems perfrej got the right training on this problem!
WIII
Think high and low pressure areas - that's alleged to be why the door stays open a modest amount until down to @60kts IAS or less. By modest amount an SK76 door will be open @3-4" at 140 knots. It's not so much the amount the door is open that generates a thread but the explosive nature of it doing its thing that garners the attention; that and the fact that the only way on that aircraft to get it closed is to slow down, a lot. Not great fun when IMC, but doable.
I never really had a problem with this until flying the BH222 and SK76 - suspect it was self induced by not paying proper attention to closing/locking doors!
Seems perfrej got the right training on this problem!
WIII
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Im a little shocked.
It doesnt seem correct that someone with that amount of experience would freak to that extent about his door opening in flight. I understand that he'd be concerned about not being able to see his load with it open and would feel the need to pickle it, but the report doesnt seem to jibe with my intuition. Everyone who flies a teeter-totter should be well aware of the nasty side effects of unloading it like that.
I've had both my door and an aft pax-door open in flight and its a non-event (in 206B3 that is). I did however wind up cracking my little slide window when I was pulling it the door closed with my left hand; that sucked. Ever since mine opened on me I began briefing pax about not freaking about it if it happened. One day a woman snagged something on the twist latch, it opened and she just told me and I landed. I know she was unusal, and most pax might be a lot more squeamish and might let out a scream, but I think the briefing really helps them understand that nothings going to happen to them. ( I also never allow any pesky small kids to sit anywhere but supervised in the aft center seat for this reason).
It just seems like something more must have contributed to him getting into a mast-bumping situation.
I've had both my door and an aft pax-door open in flight and its a non-event (in 206B3 that is). I did however wind up cracking my little slide window when I was pulling it the door closed with my left hand; that sucked. Ever since mine opened on me I began briefing pax about not freaking about it if it happened. One day a woman snagged something on the twist latch, it opened and she just told me and I landed. I know she was unusal, and most pax might be a lot more squeamish and might let out a scream, but I think the briefing really helps them understand that nothings going to happen to them. ( I also never allow any pesky small kids to sit anywhere but supervised in the aft center seat for this reason).
It just seems like something more must have contributed to him getting into a mast-bumping situation.
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All,
I'm slightly confused for a number of reasons.
Firstly I can't remember the last time I flew in a chopper where the doors were completeley sealed! It seems they all have ill fitting doors and despite repeated corrective action on the ground they seem to work themselves free again.
I've had a door pop open on me a number of times and I find the best thing to do is to put it on the deck and sort it out. Last year I was flying a 480 with my 14 year old son in the RHS. He was happily reading the latest Harry Potter book when he announced that his door had popped open at the top.
He flies with me regularly and didn't even bat an eyelid, just carried on listening to his iPod and reading his book. For a moment I was tempted to carry on to my destination which was only 10 minutes off as my son certainly wasn't bothered.
I did however put it in a field and shut the door.
I'm also surprised that a pilot with that much experience would allow a situation to develop to such an extent due to a door opening in flight.
A terrible shame.
Joel
I'm slightly confused for a number of reasons.
Firstly I can't remember the last time I flew in a chopper where the doors were completeley sealed! It seems they all have ill fitting doors and despite repeated corrective action on the ground they seem to work themselves free again.
I've had a door pop open on me a number of times and I find the best thing to do is to put it on the deck and sort it out. Last year I was flying a 480 with my 14 year old son in the RHS. He was happily reading the latest Harry Potter book when he announced that his door had popped open at the top.
He flies with me regularly and didn't even bat an eyelid, just carried on listening to his iPod and reading his book. For a moment I was tempted to carry on to my destination which was only 10 minutes off as my son certainly wasn't bothered.
I did however put it in a field and shut the door.
I'm also surprised that a pilot with that much experience would allow a situation to develop to such an extent due to a door opening in flight.
A terrible shame.
Joel
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Just come back from a flight where my drivers door popped open 100knts 2000ft on a 206B3
The main thing is the banging was very rhythmical to the point I had already entered auto and was taking a good look at the instruments before being happy it was just a door and giving it a pull to test.
We were close enough to the airfield to spin around and pop it back on grass, but with a little pedal it keeps the door from carrying on flapping around until you reach 40knots-ish.
Its only when you are down that the rotor down wash sends the door flying open!
Thought I would share my experience on this old thread as I know it is a common occurrence to many, but for the 1st time "door opening mid flight" experience, reading this thread prior to it happening to me really helped me not to panic!!!
The main thing is the banging was very rhythmical to the point I had already entered auto and was taking a good look at the instruments before being happy it was just a door and giving it a pull to test.
We were close enough to the airfield to spin around and pop it back on grass, but with a little pedal it keeps the door from carrying on flapping around until you reach 40knots-ish.
Its only when you are down that the rotor down wash sends the door flying open!
Thought I would share my experience on this old thread as I know it is a common occurrence to many, but for the 1st time "door opening mid flight" experience, reading this thread prior to it happening to me really helped me not to panic!!!
Interesting story, rotorspin. First times are always startling. You are correct, playing with the yaw trim can minimize the flapping. And yes, the door may open fully upon landing, so hope for good, strong restraint straps as well as a strong wind and then land into it!. I've found that most 206 doors can be closed if you slow down to 60 mph or so.
But I'm curious about your event. As a fellow 206B driver, why did you enter auto and *then* look at the gauges? Reason I ask is that over the years I've known a number of pilots who have related similar stories about "anomalies" in flight and their first reaction was to enter the auto.
Are we helicopter pilots that spring-loaded to autorotation? Even when that might not be the right thing to do at the time? And if so, why?
Curious.
But I'm curious about your event. As a fellow 206B driver, why did you enter auto and *then* look at the gauges? Reason I ask is that over the years I've known a number of pilots who have related similar stories about "anomalies" in flight and their first reaction was to enter the auto.
Are we helicopter pilots that spring-loaded to autorotation? Even when that might not be the right thing to do at the time? And if so, why?
Curious.
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Even coming from a robbie background, the door has popped and finished popping and nothing else has happened before you can even think of lowering the col.
I guess with some turbine time, worse case you may think it was a sticky bleed valve for a split second
I guess with some turbine time, worse case you may think it was a sticky bleed valve for a split second
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In my eagerness to fly after my pre-flight, I went through all the start up with a shiney new R22, just prior to switching on the noisey thing I pulled the door shut, started and after a couple of minutes took off, to fly up the coast past the Victorian Blackpool Tower and on to Lancaster, just abeam that tower and feeling a little contrained I moved my torso to get a little more comfy, and found the reason of my discomfort was my Hi Viz was trapped in the door, that was why I was a little constrained, however once my 16stone bulk had forced the Hi Viz material out from between door and frame/body the door shot out and was at 90 deg to Heli, I could only turn the heli in order to get the door back(for I could not reach the thing) but found then I didnt have enough "Wriggle" room to latch the door, so after explaining to the ATc what appeared to have happened, I found a field landed just for a few secs, latched the door, without the Hi Viz being in it this time, and finished my flight to Lancaster, It supprised me that it had happened in that way,.. but now the very last thing I ever check before starting any engine, is the door latch and frame of whatever heli I am in!
PeterR-B
Vfr
PeterR-B
Vfr
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FH1100 - hadn't put all the details
Jetbox had just come out of an extensive annual plus avionics overhaul taking almost 3 months to complete. First flying hour after sign off and so mindful of any potential snags.
At 2k, 100 knots the door popped with one large bang and then a rhythmical banging. Frankly at first sound it could have been any of the umpteen components that had just been replaced - so a powered descent was entered into whilst I gave a quick diagnosis... why?
My decision was based on our height (2k), only 2 pob and a third of a fuel tank which made us very light so I knew it would be a while to get us down if it was something serious (eg gear box / transmission other) that hadn't triggered a light.
Yes, I have trained and owned Robbie's (22's and 44's), but have had many different types of failures in heli's which have not made me dump the collective.
Would I do the same again? Probably if I had the height, speed, had just come out of maintenance and was very light.
Going back to the point it is articles like this where we see a pilot die due to a very bizarre door opening incident and pilots sharing their experiences & comments that makes me come back to Pprune time and time again.
Had I ever been told about doors flying open mid-flight by anybody before reading Pprune before? Nope.....not by instructors or others...
Jetbox had just come out of an extensive annual plus avionics overhaul taking almost 3 months to complete. First flying hour after sign off and so mindful of any potential snags.
At 2k, 100 knots the door popped with one large bang and then a rhythmical banging. Frankly at first sound it could have been any of the umpteen components that had just been replaced - so a powered descent was entered into whilst I gave a quick diagnosis... why?
My decision was based on our height (2k), only 2 pob and a third of a fuel tank which made us very light so I knew it would be a while to get us down if it was something serious (eg gear box / transmission other) that hadn't triggered a light.
Yes, I have trained and owned Robbie's (22's and 44's), but have had many different types of failures in heli's which have not made me dump the collective.
Would I do the same again? Probably if I had the height, speed, had just come out of maintenance and was very light.
Going back to the point it is articles like this where we see a pilot die due to a very bizarre door opening incident and pilots sharing their experiences & comments that makes me come back to Pprune time and time again.
Had I ever been told about doors flying open mid-flight by anybody before reading Pprune before? Nope.....not by instructors or others...
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Anybody with time in a Robinson R22 has a hair trigger auto reflex.
Had the door open in flight in an ancient 22, scared the crap outa me!!
Never thought about auto though.
On climb out from a private site at 400 ft around 60 knts, the door latch worked loose ( a known fault on this particular robbie) , locked the lever and calmly closed it with left hand, flew rest of trip with my elbow on the latch to stop it vibrating up and loose!!
Never thought about auto though.
On climb out from a private site at 400 ft around 60 knts, the door latch worked loose ( a known fault on this particular robbie) , locked the lever and calmly closed it with left hand, flew rest of trip with my elbow on the latch to stop it vibrating up and loose!!
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Over the years I've had a few doors pop in 206's and had door lights in 76's and usually it has been no big deal. The main thing to remember is, "don't panic".
I once had a 206 passenger door (left/rear) pop open in flight. I asked the guy sitting there to just open it again and give it a 'bit of a slam'. Of course he did this trying to close it whilst holding onto the open window and the inevitable happend. The whole window came in, in his hand. There he was holding a complete window in the rear seat with a silly grin on his face. Moral of that story, be careful what you say to the untrained.
The one that scarred me the most though was an AS350 baggage bay door that popped in flight. I was on descent at 120KIAS for a ship landing to pick up a Marine Pilot. I heard a muffled bang and felt a buffet. I decelaerated immediatly and completed a normal landing but this time I shut down on the ship to investigate. I found that the L/H cheek door had not been latched correctly at the front part of the door and had opened due to the air loads imposed. In the time it took me to slow down, the air pulling at the door had applied such a load to the forward hinge (one piece pressed metal) that the hinge had started to peel open and was only hanging on by the smallest margin. I shudder to think what would of happend had it let go. Moral of that story, when you do your walk around and look for open cowls and doors, have a really good look and not just a cursorary one as I did that day. Like the saying goes, "learn from others mistakes as you won't live long enough to make them all yourself".
Fly Safe
Harry
I once had a 206 passenger door (left/rear) pop open in flight. I asked the guy sitting there to just open it again and give it a 'bit of a slam'. Of course he did this trying to close it whilst holding onto the open window and the inevitable happend. The whole window came in, in his hand. There he was holding a complete window in the rear seat with a silly grin on his face. Moral of that story, be careful what you say to the untrained.
The one that scarred me the most though was an AS350 baggage bay door that popped in flight. I was on descent at 120KIAS for a ship landing to pick up a Marine Pilot. I heard a muffled bang and felt a buffet. I decelaerated immediatly and completed a normal landing but this time I shut down on the ship to investigate. I found that the L/H cheek door had not been latched correctly at the front part of the door and had opened due to the air loads imposed. In the time it took me to slow down, the air pulling at the door had applied such a load to the forward hinge (one piece pressed metal) that the hinge had started to peel open and was only hanging on by the smallest margin. I shudder to think what would of happend had it let go. Moral of that story, when you do your walk around and look for open cowls and doors, have a really good look and not just a cursorary one as I did that day. Like the saying goes, "learn from others mistakes as you won't live long enough to make them all yourself".
Fly Safe
Harry
A North Sea Super Puma flying back to Aberdeen with zero passengers many years ago.
There a thump and the cockpit door indicator shows that the port passenger door was unsafe. Captain looks back and sees a gap where the door has unlatched and sprung out to the travel rail. (A Puma passenger door is very much like a sliding door on a people carrier). The co-pilot is instructed/volunteers to go and shut it.
The captain slows the aircraft down to 70 knots as the co-pilot climbs out of his seat. He has to disconnect himself from the intercom to go to the cabin and the captain gives him a final instruction as he does so.
The co-pilot goes up to the door to close it. No harness, no nothing. He puts his hands on the handles to pull it closed just as the door flies off. He is left standing there looking down at the sea 2000 ft. below. He then, very quietly, returns to his seat and they fly the aircaft back to Aberdeen.
The final instructions from the captain before he went back to close the door were still on the cockpit voice recorder back at Aberdeen.
"If you fall out wrap yourself into ball and then it wont hurt so much when you hit the sea."
There a thump and the cockpit door indicator shows that the port passenger door was unsafe. Captain looks back and sees a gap where the door has unlatched and sprung out to the travel rail. (A Puma passenger door is very much like a sliding door on a people carrier). The co-pilot is instructed/volunteers to go and shut it.
The captain slows the aircraft down to 70 knots as the co-pilot climbs out of his seat. He has to disconnect himself from the intercom to go to the cabin and the captain gives him a final instruction as he does so.
The co-pilot goes up to the door to close it. No harness, no nothing. He puts his hands on the handles to pull it closed just as the door flies off. He is left standing there looking down at the sea 2000 ft. below. He then, very quietly, returns to his seat and they fly the aircaft back to Aberdeen.
The final instructions from the captain before he went back to close the door were still on the cockpit voice recorder back at Aberdeen.
"If you fall out wrap yourself into ball and then it wont hurt so much when you hit the sea."
