Cougar & Bond - What Now ?
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Monkeys ride bikes, ever seen one fix a puncture??
Posts: 356
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm just waiting for the "Sue Eurocopter" posters to swing into action like they did on the Cougr thread..
SAS - Perhaps safety at reasonable cost is more accurate?
SAS - Perhaps safety at reasonable cost is more accurate?
How do we define "safety".....what metrics do the oil companies use to arrive at the intersection of the lives lost curve and the cost of prevention curve?
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Monkeys ride bikes, ever seen one fix a puncture??
Posts: 356
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SAS - To be blunt, as it was put to me by a senior safety advisor from one company "When we are in court, and the judge asks what steps we took to prevent this accident, we have to show realistic risk reduction"
I took that a resignation that accidents will occur (Its a helicopter, of course accidents will happen) but if systems and procedures can be implemented, without eating into too much of the profits, since OGP is actually a profit making business and not a civil service. I think thats a point many of us overlook, we work in a profit making business, not a charity. You get in that helicopter knowing that you are part of that business. Costs will always be trimmed to make a business as lean as possible, its called market competition. Sadly safety has a budget too
I took that a resignation that accidents will occur (Its a helicopter, of course accidents will happen) but if systems and procedures can be implemented, without eating into too much of the profits, since OGP is actually a profit making business and not a civil service. I think thats a point many of us overlook, we work in a profit making business, not a charity. You get in that helicopter knowing that you are part of that business. Costs will always be trimmed to make a business as lean as possible, its called market competition. Sadly safety has a budget too
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Kingwood and Onalaska TX
Age: 79
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A thin line:
I believe that a good aviation advisor walks a thin line. On the one hand he is responsible to his employer to propose, develop and defend the company’s position. On the other hand he is often the intermediary between the contractor and his company, explaining and mitigating positions by the company that unduly put the contractor at risk. A thin line to be sure.
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Monkeys ride bikes, ever seen one fix a puncture??
Posts: 356
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Seawings
Yeah and you wouldn't want his job either, especially at times like this right??!! Worse than being a referee in a Rangers V Celtic game!
FT
Yeah and you wouldn't want his job either, especially at times like this right??!! Worse than being a referee in a Rangers V Celtic game!
FT
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Evening Telegram St John's (today)
"The oil companies held townhall meetings in St. John's with hundreds of offshore workers Monday about resuming helicopter flights offshore - something that could happen as early as next week.
Helicopter flights were suspended following the March 12 helicopter crash that killed 17 of 18 offshore workers and crew aboard a Cougar Helicopters Sikorsky S-92A bound for the White Rose and Hibernia oilfields.
The townhall meetings have a three-fold purpose, according to the head of the Hibernia Management and Development Company (HMDC).
"The purpose of the briefing tonight was to provide information to our workforce based on the industry's review of helicopter operations, firstly," said Paul Sacuta, president of HMDC.
"Secondly, it was to answer their questions ... and the third thing was to be able to discuss why the industry is confident that it's safe to get back on a helicopter."
He declined to elaborate, saying employees will get the details first.
Sacuta and other oil company executives are flying offshore this week, weather permitting, for more townhall-style meetings."I'm confident because I've seen all the work that was done by the task force and by the industry in general," he said. "That's the message we're going to take offshore."
Meetings are scheduled today for Husky Energy employees at the White Rose oilfield, Wednesday for Terra Nova and Thursday for Hibernia workers.
The Telegram has learned that offshore workers could be given a one-time right to refuse a helicopter flight, if they don't feel comfortable with it. But they won't be able to refuse a second flight.
The companies weren't commenting on any of the details of their presentations to employees Monday."[/font]
Helicopter flights were suspended following the March 12 helicopter crash that killed 17 of 18 offshore workers and crew aboard a Cougar Helicopters Sikorsky S-92A bound for the White Rose and Hibernia oilfields.
The townhall meetings have a three-fold purpose, according to the head of the Hibernia Management and Development Company (HMDC).
"The purpose of the briefing tonight was to provide information to our workforce based on the industry's review of helicopter operations, firstly," said Paul Sacuta, president of HMDC.
"Secondly, it was to answer their questions ... and the third thing was to be able to discuss why the industry is confident that it's safe to get back on a helicopter."
He declined to elaborate, saying employees will get the details first.
Sacuta and other oil company executives are flying offshore this week, weather permitting, for more townhall-style meetings."I'm confident because I've seen all the work that was done by the task force and by the industry in general," he said. "That's the message we're going to take offshore."
Meetings are scheduled today for Husky Energy employees at the White Rose oilfield, Wednesday for Terra Nova and Thursday for Hibernia workers.
The Telegram has learned that offshore workers could be given a one-time right to refuse a helicopter flight, if they don't feel comfortable with it. But they won't be able to refuse a second flight.
The companies weren't commenting on any of the details of their presentations to employees Monday."[/font]
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Derbyshire, England.
Posts: 4,095
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Regarding Insurance Premiums.
I think it is unlikely that Bond's premium will go up at the next renewal.
If underwriters have doubts about an operator they will commission an audit, in the case of Lloyd's, Lloyd's Aviation and in the case of the major insurance companies, Airclaims, (it will depend on whether the leading underwriters are from Lloyd's or a major company). Provided that the audit is satisfactory then it is unlikely that rates will increase for that operator by more than the market average. Underwriters will look in to the 'pot' for Bond, for example, and see how premium income over the last, say, ten years, compares to claims and base their decision on that. Excluding seriously bad operators insurance rates tend to go up or down depending on the overall trend of claims in the preceding year for that market, (Industrial use helicopters), rather than on the basis of the isolated experiences of one operator.
Just general stuff to give some idea of, (roughly), how the market operates.
If underwriters have doubts about an operator they will commission an audit, in the case of Lloyd's, Lloyd's Aviation and in the case of the major insurance companies, Airclaims, (it will depend on whether the leading underwriters are from Lloyd's or a major company). Provided that the audit is satisfactory then it is unlikely that rates will increase for that operator by more than the market average. Underwriters will look in to the 'pot' for Bond, for example, and see how premium income over the last, say, ten years, compares to claims and base their decision on that. Excluding seriously bad operators insurance rates tend to go up or down depending on the overall trend of claims in the preceding year for that market, (Industrial use helicopters), rather than on the basis of the isolated experiences of one operator.
Just general stuff to give some idea of, (roughly), how the market operates.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: england
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would have guessed that bond got an increase on renewal this year for their first loss, the second loss happened on their renewal. The pot for off shore heli's is empty, All offshore ops might be paying more one way or another for their insurance. Lets not forget operators are not crashing small value heli's anymore they are dumping $15m + machines and therfore the payback is much longer. We were hoping that with the glass cockpit the frequency of losses will deminish but so far that hasn't happened.
Last edited by InsuranceGuy; 14th May 2009 at 08:39.
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
VOCM St. John's News-Info (today)
VOCM St. John's News-Info (today)
There is still no word on when Cougar Helicopters will resume regular passenger flights, but officials hope it will be in the next week or so. In the meantime, a company spokesperson says there was nothing to an incident yesterday which involved crew and oil company officials switching aircraft on the tarmac. A light came on in the cockpit as the helicopter was preparing to take officials to the offshore for a town hall meeting. The helicopter never left the tarmac, and in the interest of time, the crew and passengers simply switched to another helicopter. Maintenance identified and fixed the sensor in a very short time.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: White Waltham, Prestwick & Calgary
Age: 72
Posts: 4,156
Likes: 0
Received 29 Likes
on
14 Posts
InsuranceGuy - interesting, that, just as I suspected, but just curious - how would you expect the glass cockpit to improve things? I know they are supposed to make the assimilation of information "easier", but isn't that it?
Phil
Phil
Insurance Guy - is that information in the public domain? If not, I'd suggest it's extremely inappropriate to post it!
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
St. John’s, The Telegram, May 16th 2009 :
“ These are excerpts from the question-and-answer presentation provided to offshore employees about returning to helicopter flights to the Grand Banks......
Q : There have been comments that the gearbox should be able to run dry for 30 minutes. If this is the case why did this not happen ?
A : Sikorsky states that there is no “30-minute run dry” requirement for civilian certified helicopters.
The S-92A main gearbox is fully certified, without waiver or exception, to the latest (U.S.) federal aviation regulations (FARs), including Part 29 through Amendment 47.
Sikorsky states that total loss of oil is considered an extremely remote event based on system design.
Further, that for all gearbox failure modes that are not deemed as extremely remote, continued safe operation of the S-92A helicopter main gearbox has been demonstrated in excess of three hours running time.
In the circumstance of total loss of lubrication, a “land immediately” instruction is directed.”
....flights resume tommorrow (Monday).
“ These are excerpts from the question-and-answer presentation provided to offshore employees about returning to helicopter flights to the Grand Banks......
Q : There have been comments that the gearbox should be able to run dry for 30 minutes. If this is the case why did this not happen ?
A : Sikorsky states that there is no “30-minute run dry” requirement for civilian certified helicopters.
The S-92A main gearbox is fully certified, without waiver or exception, to the latest (U.S.) federal aviation regulations (FARs), including Part 29 through Amendment 47.
Sikorsky states that total loss of oil is considered an extremely remote event based on system design.
Further, that for all gearbox failure modes that are not deemed as extremely remote, continued safe operation of the S-92A helicopter main gearbox has been demonstrated in excess of three hours running time.
In the circumstance of total loss of lubrication, a “land immediately” instruction is directed.”
....flights resume tommorrow (Monday).
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: White Waltham, Prestwick & Calgary
Age: 72
Posts: 4,156
Likes: 0
Received 29 Likes
on
14 Posts
"Sikorsky states that total loss of oil is considered an extremely remote event based on system design"
So does that mean they are able to wriggle out of testing?
Phil
So does that mean they are able to wriggle out of testing?
Phil
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Lora view
Age: 43
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bp Back With Bond
Not a good start for Bond today.
Flight onto the PBLJ pax got off helicopter, refueled pax boarded HLO and fireman noticed oil coming from engine compartment running down the side to the deck notified the pilot who said it was ok.
chopper lifted and on the way back to Aberdeen made a landing at Wick all pax had to get off and wait for another helicopter to come up from Aberdeen with engineers. Some very unhappy people on the rig at the moment
. This does nothing to help the low confidence that most offshore workers have at the moment.
CF
Flight onto the PBLJ pax got off helicopter, refueled pax boarded HLO and fireman noticed oil coming from engine compartment running down the side to the deck notified the pilot who said it was ok.
chopper lifted and on the way back to Aberdeen made a landing at Wick all pax had to get off and wait for another helicopter to come up from Aberdeen with engineers. Some very unhappy people on the rig at the moment
. This does nothing to help the low confidence that most offshore workers have at the moment.CF
As an engineer with many years experience and IMO no MGB can run without any oil at all whatsoever for 30 minutes. I suspect that any oil loss for the purposes of certification, if this is the case, (I suspect not) is expected to occur from leaking seals over a period of time, not a instant total loss through a faulty oil filter attachment, causing all oil to be pumped overboard very quickly.
I suspect that any oil loss for the purposes of certification, if this is the case, (I suspect not) is expected to occur from leaking seals over a period of time, not a instant total loss through a faulty oil filter attachment, causing all oil to be pumped overboard very quickly.
A bench test (transmission test rig) is commonly used to demonstrate compliance with this rule. Since this is a test of the capability of the residual oil in the transmission to provide limited lubrication, a critical entry condition for the test should be established. The transmission lubricating oil should be drained while the transmission is operating at maximum normal speed and nominal cruise torque (reacted as appropriate at the main mast and tail rotor output quills).
One cannot be surprised that Sikorsky continue to bluster that there is nothing wrong with the aircraft - after all, the only alternative would be to admit that it didn't comply with 927, which would ground all the aircraft indefinitely until a hardware fix was installed. There might be a few operators wanting their money back...
HC
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I wonder what official position (if any), the FAA is taking regarding what the intent of the "30 minute" wording in their Regulation is ?
Is the "extremely remote" design calculation still valid based on current total TIS of the aircraft ?
Is there an ELS "bolt-on" fix possible ? Don't see why the FAA couldn't issue a new Amendment to FAR29 to push the whole thing forward - commercially it could be consdered an "upgrade" and given the current climate wouldn't a "flow-through" cost be acceptable to all, in the interest of pushing the safety envelope forward ?
Is the "extremely remote" design calculation still valid based on current total TIS of the aircraft ?
Is there an ELS "bolt-on" fix possible ? Don't see why the FAA couldn't issue a new Amendment to FAR29 to push the whole thing forward - commercially it could be consdered an "upgrade" and given the current climate wouldn't a "flow-through" cost be acceptable to all, in the interest of pushing the safety envelope forward ?