Certification costs - Bell412
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2009
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From: Liverpool
Certification costs - Bell412
Does anyone know where I would be able to find information on the costs associated with recertification of a Bell412??? Any info would be much appreciated!
FYI This is for a handling qualities module I am studying at The University of Liverpool for a Masters in Aerospace Engineering. We have designed a handling control system for a Bell142 in an EMS role (somewhat relevant to a recent media frenzy...), and it is my responsibility to conduct the feasiblity report. The economics is the hard part; can't find any info related to certification costs, not even accounts of historical cases or for similar rotorcraft.
Any thoughts guys?
FYI This is for a handling qualities module I am studying at The University of Liverpool for a Masters in Aerospace Engineering. We have designed a handling control system for a Bell142 in an EMS role (somewhat relevant to a recent media frenzy...), and it is my responsibility to conduct the feasiblity report. The economics is the hard part; can't find any info related to certification costs, not even accounts of historical cases or for similar rotorcraft.
Any thoughts guys?
Joined: Dec 2001
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From: Philadelphia PA
You simply don't want to know. With the CAA / EASA - it's on a per-hour basis, and the rate is the other side of £150 per hour per engineer. And it will take a lot of engineers.
Talk to Canada's National Research Council about doing the flying for you - they have a fly-by-wire 412 that they could literally drop your software into. Rates are reasonable too - and they really know what they're talking about with regard to handling qualities and flight safety. (I'll collect my commission later, guys).
Unless you have a whole lot of experience doing certification, I wouldn't even dream of trying to do this until you've gone through the NRC 412 route.
PM me if you need contact details.
Talk to Canada's National Research Council about doing the flying for you - they have a fly-by-wire 412 that they could literally drop your software into. Rates are reasonable too - and they really know what they're talking about with regard to handling qualities and flight safety. (I'll collect my commission later, guys).
Unless you have a whole lot of experience doing certification, I wouldn't even dream of trying to do this until you've gone through the NRC 412 route.
PM me if you need contact details.
Joined: Jan 2009
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From: around and about
412 re-certification
Bell Boy
Your 'Uncle' Shawn is absolutely right on cost; formidable, and measured in (a great many) tens of 1000s of dollars, if not hundreds. Bell did a program of Flt Testing for the 430 and unfortunately utilised imperial data for their FM performance section. This, of course, didn't quite meet the SI (metric) system so it all was pretty much for nothing. Lot of very hacked off ppl around
. A great many strenuous conversations ensued
.
The idea of using the NRC machine is a great one but, as he says, you would still have to get it past EASA/CAA - and the figure there is £180 / hr. PM me if you want an alternative - I know an ex CAA certification man who runs a consultancy. He is MORE than capable, and he doesn't charge £180/hr, however you will still have to fund the hundreds of manhours used by the regulatory types to 'approve' his submission on your behalf.
Pain of the first order that great ideas get strangled at birth
VFR
Your 'Uncle' Shawn is absolutely right on cost; formidable, and measured in (a great many) tens of 1000s of dollars, if not hundreds. Bell did a program of Flt Testing for the 430 and unfortunately utilised imperial data for their FM performance section. This, of course, didn't quite meet the SI (metric) system so it all was pretty much for nothing. Lot of very hacked off ppl around
. A great many strenuous conversations ensued.The idea of using the NRC machine is a great one but, as he says, you would still have to get it past EASA/CAA - and the figure there is £180 / hr. PM me if you want an alternative - I know an ex CAA certification man who runs a consultancy. He is MORE than capable, and he doesn't charge £180/hr, however you will still have to fund the hundreds of manhours used by the regulatory types to 'approve' his submission on your behalf.
Pain of the first order that great ideas get strangled at birth
VFR
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2009
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From: Liverpool
Cheers guys, tho I should point out that we're not actually going through with this, it is simply for a project - theory makes perfect for a graduate engineer 
Would anyone be able to point me in the directio of a case where a Bell412 - or similar - has been modified for EMS with a figure for the recertification process?
Would anyone be able to point me in the directio of a case where a Bell412 - or similar - has been modified for EMS with a figure for the recertification process?
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,444
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From: Beyond the black stump!
OK, lets try and work through this so that you might be able to get some idea of the cost process.
1. Scope of modification.
1. Scope of modification.
- Airframe modification to interior and exterior to facilitate installation of mission equipment?
- Physical changes to basic certificated aircraft configuration or systems?
- Is the equipment or technology to be installed currently certified?
- Will it change the operating or performance characteristics of the aircraft?
- Will the equipment place large demands on the aircraft electrical systems? Other systems?
- Will the aircraft be operated VFR/IFR?
- Will the modification change the basic performance of the aircraft?
- Will the modification alter the basic flight performance of the aircraft?
- Will it require a flight test programme to (re)define performance?
- Will the modification possibly degrade performance - ie; external modifications to basic structure
- Where will this modification initially be certificated?
- Where will the work and flight test be accomplished?
Joined: Jun 2008
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From: Behind a dusty desk, and in some really hot, dusty, wet and cold places subject to who is paying the bill. But mostly Gods own land.
Bell Boy,
Well you get the ambitious project award, PM me if you want actual cost details for a medical fit on a 412.
Not to sound too disparaging but why the 412? Shell no longer want to use 412’s for their work as they are “old” and not up to new safety standards, perhaps a more modern airframe would be more appropriate, or certainly it may be worth noting in your project that the 412 is old technology.
Miles
Well you get the ambitious project award, PM me if you want actual cost details for a medical fit on a 412.
Not to sound too disparaging but why the 412? Shell no longer want to use 412’s for their work as they are “old” and not up to new safety standards, perhaps a more modern airframe would be more appropriate, or certainly it may be worth noting in your project that the 412 is old technology.
Miles
Joined: Oct 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 7,371
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From: Den Haag
did a program of Flt Testing for the 430 and unfortunately utilised imperial data for their FM performance section. This, of course, didn't quite meet the SI (metric) system so it all was pretty much for nothing
Joined: May 2005
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From: Europe trying to enjoy retirement “YES”
Being a devil’s advocate, with all the expense involved and the huge amount of time in development, would it not be a better idea to direct the resource towards a helicopter that was emerging and had a future.
O
O
