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Gyrocopter involved in murder charge

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Gyrocopter involved in murder charge

Old 11th Mar 2009, 09:55
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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I am not aware of any rotorcraft that can stop it's blades instantly. So the arguments for switching it off etc etc hold no weight in my opinion.
Nor I, so I agree - I don't think that would have helped.

It appears (BBC) that Warwickshire Police have been given extra time to detain the two persons arrested. There must be more to this than meets the eye!
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Old 11th Mar 2009, 10:17
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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Warwickshire Police have been given extra time to detain the two persons arrested. There must be more to this than meets the eye!
Might be just that they needed more time to find someone who knew enough about gyrocopters to ask the right questions.

And I believe that there is still some value in switching off the engine regardless of rotor momentum: at least the propulsion propeller will become harmless almost instantly and you will be able to talk to the intruder more easily.

According to the nth hand eye witness account above they were going away from refuelling, when you would not expect the rotor to be at speed either, but I suppose that even in the early stage of pre-rotation it is going to hit hard.
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Old 11th Mar 2009, 12:25
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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Might be just that they needed more time to find someone who knew enough about gyrocopters to ask the right questions.
Absolutely could be. Mind you I thought I read that the AAIB sent two chaps up yesterday morning - so you'd hope they might know a bit. Personally, I am extremely cynical about the motives of Warwickshire Police here; but it will all come out in the wash and at least we can rely on the AAIB to be relatively unbiased.

And I believe that there is still some value in switching off the engine regardless of rotor momentum: at least the propulsion propeller will become harmless almost instantly and you will be able to talk to the intruder more easily.

According to the nth hand eye witness account above they were going away from refuelling, when you would not expect the rotor to be at speed either, but I suppose that even in the early stage of pre-rotation it is going to hit hard.
It wouldn't do any harm, that is for sure. Will be interesting to see in the AAIB report which blade was hit. There was suggestion earlier on here that the rotor blade had some damage, and then later some suggestion that perhaps the rear prop was hit.

Head injuries have been suggested too - so perhaps it was a blade sailing of the main rotor; only time will tell.

(I shall ignore the previous 2 posts, and hope SP deletes them when he has a minute!).
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Old 11th Mar 2009, 12:44
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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The worst reporting so far.

From the 'Coventry Evening Telegraph' ;

Coventry Telegraph - News - Coventry News - Two quizzed over Warwickshire Hunt supporter death



It is believed Mr Morse was watching the Warwickshire Hunt when the tragedy happened. It emerged yesterday that complaints had been made about a gyropcopter following
hunt supporters just days before Mr Morse’s death.
Last night, one pro-hunt campaigner said Monday’s tragedy had been an accident waiting to happen.

What idiot of a journalist could have written this tripe.
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Old 11th Mar 2009, 13:34
  #45 (permalink)  

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Despite the alleged complaint made about previous low flying, it seems the tragic confrontation was made by the main victim himself.

Perhaps the pilot was not aware that the man was about to approach the aircraft. Surely it perfectly reasonable to expect that pedestrians on an airfield are entitled to be there and therefore aware of basic safety issues - such as not approaching a running aircraft without permission.
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Old 11th Mar 2009, 14:31
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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A lot of fine lines to this tragedy I should imagine.

Supposing (for whatever reason) you stand in front of a moving car and shout "Oi I want a word with you" or similar

The driver brakes but still flattens you - clearly an accident

The driver accelerates at you - that's getting towards manslaughter/murder

The driver doesn't react either way ??????


And yes, standing in front of a moving car is never a good idea.
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Old 11th Mar 2009, 15:06
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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"Actually you can taxi towards someone and the person would still be hit by the rear pointing propeller as the width of the prop is wider than the gyrocopters fuselage."

Though with the wheel track and tailplane span, it would be difficult for a pilot to engineer a deliberate prop strike.

I wasn't there, I know nothing of the circumstances, but in my experience, the level of aggression, intimidation and violence shown by vehicle-mounted hunt followers and supporters towards those they perceive as being 'Antis' is astonishing, and quite the equal of anything that we see from the 'Antis' themselves.

I wonder whether the victim didn't simply approach the aircraft with his 'blood up', looking for a confrontation, and then tripped over the landing gear straight into the prop. It certainly seems more likely than 'murder'.
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Old 11th Mar 2009, 15:08
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Or say you stood in front of a stationary (but running) vehicle arguing with the driver over some previous alleged incident, and the driver got angry and deliberately drove at you, knocking you over and into the propulsion system?
What ever's happened either way, it's going to be one for the courts to sort out.

The still photos clearly show damage to at least two of the pusher blades.
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Old 11th Mar 2009, 15:57
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Murder requires the proving of intent to kill, or taking some action that could reasonably result in the death of another such as an assault.
Murder is causing death with either an intent to kill or to an intent to cause grievous bodily harm; manslaughter is the causing of a death as the result of some other unlawful act. Death resulting from a common assault would not be murder, it would be manslaughter.

The law of self defence has not changed in the last few years (it was codified in 2008) though prosecution guidelines have. Any person may use reasonable force in self defence or preventing a crime. What amounts to reasonable force will depend on the circumstances as the defendant believed them to be. Obviously, the force you can use to prevent a burglary of you home is going to be potentially much greater than you could use to stop someone dropping litter! In fact courts and juries have been generally quite lenient in judging acts committed in the heat of the moment. The problem with the law is that when applied to a murder charge, if the force is found to be excessive then the person will be convicted of murder, i.e. the self defence argument cannot be used to reduce murder to manslaughter, it is an all or nothing defence.
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Old 11th Mar 2009, 16:24
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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What idiot of a journalist could have written this tripe.
Helen Thomas - she signed it.
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Old 11th Mar 2009, 16:41
  #51 (permalink)  
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Sasless, theres a question for you back on page one of this thing. Can we get an answer??
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Old 11th Mar 2009, 17:27
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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At least Miss Thomas gets to air her opinion seems the moderator chose to withdraw my post What next barred for having an opinion.



Your totally offensive and inappropriate post about the ASU and Brazilians was deleted by me. If you want to make inane and stupid posts, find another place to play

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Old 11th Mar 2009, 17:38
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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Comparing this incident to an equivelent incident with cars is not the same.

If the hunt supporter tried to stop a moving aircraft, then it was an illegal interference i.e. hijack. The pilot is well within his rights rights not to stop the aircraft.

Stopping a car 'to have a word with the driver' is also against the Road Traffic Act but not considered anywhere as serious as interference of an aircraft.


Edit: I believe the gyro has a Rotax engine which stops very quickly (say a couple of engine rotations) but if the rotars were already spinning they would continue for a long time after as they are free wheeling.
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Old 11th Mar 2009, 17:46
  #54 (permalink)  
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B Sousa

If you mean your question in post 5, it was answered in post 7.

August 2, 2002, at 1952 central daylight time, Rantoul National Aviation Center-Frank Elliot Field Airport (TIP), Rantoul Illinois,
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Old 11th Mar 2009, 18:14
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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CD2M

The pilot is well within his rights rights not to stop the aircraft.
Ludicrous! Do you really believe that? Try telling that to the judge.
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Old 11th Mar 2009, 19:03
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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There is a thread running on Horse & Hound forum, which gives the hunt's supporters side of the story.

It seems the victim chased the Gyrocopter for 12 miles to the airfield where it refueled.

Horse and Hound Online Forum: Warwickshire hunt follower dies in gyrocopter accident

part of balanced reporting why I do this. It seems aviation is caught between the pros and cons of hunting foxes (although I understand this was not a real hunt as it is now illegal in the UK)
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Old 11th Mar 2009, 19:58
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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The hunt felt it necessary to report him to the CAA some weeks earlier for his actions.
I would therefore disagree with your suggestion that prior action is irrelevant as it could be fundamental to the subsequent actions of the pilot and no doubt that will be part of the police investigation of the weeks leading up to the incident.
All in all - it is a mess and somebody lost their life and the police have a responsibility to do their due diligence.
Prior events might give insight to the views/bonhomie of those involved (both hunstsman and pilot), but they don't tell us anything about how 'prop bites man'.

If a man reverses over his kid in the drive, the fact that he bawled out the sprog for not eating his greens an hour earlier would not normally spark a murder investigation!
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Old 11th Mar 2009, 20:19
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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Bert,

We were asked politely not to go there as I recall.

Out of respect for that request I did not go there.

Why we should not recall that a "Professional Pilot" flying a Bell 412 with a load of Sky Divers at a height low enough to chop off the head of a photographer standing in the middle of a corn field at a time when an amateur Gyrocopter pilot was involved in a fatal accident where an individual died of head injuries escapes me.....but I was being polite.

The fact the FAA and the local authorities not only did not charge the 412 Pilot for any crime, or FAA violation and took no action of any kind should not reflect upon this incident where the Gyro Copter Pilot was immediately arrested on Murder Charges and held in custody.

Perhaps it is all chalk and cheese as the 412 Pilot was only showing his ass by hot dogging with passengers aboard his aircraft in full view of hundreds of folks and did so on multiple flights that day.....should not be considered grounds for criminal, civil, or license action by the authorities. After all....only one fellow got his head lopped off by a main rotor blade.

What the heck....it was an airshow of sorts wasn't it?

The photographer should not have been in the corn field playing gopher amongst the ears of corn and hiding in the tassles.....right? That will teach him to think one can stand upright in the vicinity of an airport.

Sometimes a dark night and a very large stick is the avenue towards positive change within society....shame it did not happen in the Rantoul case.

Sorry, Bert.....but I do not wish to go there.
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Old 11th Mar 2009, 21:46
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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Pilot has now been charged with the murder.
Warwickshire Police Media Portal - Man charged following death at Long Marston airfield
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Old 11th Mar 2009, 22:48
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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details of the photo are
canon eos 40D
Date 12/02/ 2009 at 13:05:59
focal length 400mm
f/7.1 at 1/2000 sec

a clever person could work out the height
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