Regulations for the operations in dead man's curve
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,957
Likes: 0
From: Australia
I think the statistical, 'accidents per number of hours' is a bit of humbug. It is far more relevant to quote the number of emergencies per the number of pilots.
I.E. We all know someone who has had a problem, and many of us have had many problems, not just with silence out back, but also any of the mryiad reasons why a 'controlled' silence is far better for continued good times. T'R drive failure or, etc, etc.
The 206 may be a prob at 7000'da, but by crikey the '47 is a gem at that, and higher.
Lander,
we operate near there all the time, but we teach safety mechanisms. Thirty knots when turning downwind or at least translation please most all the time, or, when at low height having just zoomed up a bit and there is no airspeed then at least position the aircraft with airspeed potential. I.E. Leave the disk tilted downwards I mean while you have a good look about, then just follow downward tilt side of the disk.
With two engines I would assume that you personally check the single tank full of fuel on the refuelling tender? maybe plenty of twin supply from the same tank??
Giving a person the gift of practised accomplishment from a difficult area of the HV curve is one thing, to loiter unnecessarily in there is totally another of foolhardiness.
Shawn
we have spoken before about this absurd practice of the military, of two seconds delay. why is this? They will never get to see the limits potential of any aircraft by putting such blinkers on their insular thinking.
For sure, certification authorities need to insure that they have an aircraft that the normally slightly slower person can land. One second is more than enough.
cheers tet
I.E. We all know someone who has had a problem, and many of us have had many problems, not just with silence out back, but also any of the mryiad reasons why a 'controlled' silence is far better for continued good times. T'R drive failure or, etc, etc.
The 206 may be a prob at 7000'da, but by crikey the '47 is a gem at that, and higher.
Lander,
we operate near there all the time, but we teach safety mechanisms. Thirty knots when turning downwind or at least translation please most all the time, or, when at low height having just zoomed up a bit and there is no airspeed then at least position the aircraft with airspeed potential. I.E. Leave the disk tilted downwards I mean while you have a good look about, then just follow downward tilt side of the disk.
With two engines I would assume that you personally check the single tank full of fuel on the refuelling tender? maybe plenty of twin supply from the same tank??
Giving a person the gift of practised accomplishment from a difficult area of the HV curve is one thing, to loiter unnecessarily in there is totally another of foolhardiness.
Shawn
we have spoken before about this absurd practice of the military, of two seconds delay. why is this? They will never get to see the limits potential of any aircraft by putting such blinkers on their insular thinking.
For sure, certification authorities need to insure that they have an aircraft that the normally slightly slower person can land. One second is more than enough.
cheers tet
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,835
Likes: 3
From: Philadelphia PA
Ttopendtorque:
We could debate the 1 vs 2 second rule for a long time. There is evidence (and experience) that 1 second isn't long enough - it's hardly time for the 'this can't be happening to me' to flit through your mind. 2 seconds with no reaction on any controls is too long and unrealistic on the other hand.
From my experience, if you use the same criteria as was used to develop the HV curve (no matter which intervention time), the HV curve is a valid indication of the area to avoid. Sadly, a lot of hot-shot instructors think they can demonstrate that they can 'beat' the HV curve - but they do this without understanding what the curve actually represents.
We could debate the 1 vs 2 second rule for a long time. There is evidence (and experience) that 1 second isn't long enough - it's hardly time for the 'this can't be happening to me' to flit through your mind. 2 seconds with no reaction on any controls is too long and unrealistic on the other hand.
From my experience, if you use the same criteria as was used to develop the HV curve (no matter which intervention time), the HV curve is a valid indication of the area to avoid. Sadly, a lot of hot-shot instructors think they can demonstrate that they can 'beat' the HV curve - but they do this without understanding what the curve actually represents.
Joined: Apr 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 10,959
Likes: 1,814
From: EGDC
Shawn, is the 2 seconds not a measure of the possible workload in the military cockpit where not only is the aircraft being flown but also weapons targeted, tactical decisions being considered, multiple comms in use etc etc.
If 2 seconds had been applied to certification of civil aicraft, maybe we wouldn't have lost so many lives in the R22.
If 2 seconds had been applied to certification of civil aicraft, maybe we wouldn't have lost so many lives in the R22.
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
From: Texas
Shawn,
I have little experience in OH-58's, but I do know that there is a difference in rotor rpm in the OH-58A and 206B. Also, if you compare Bell 205 and UH-1H HV's you will see that the 205 HV is set at a higher OGE height (for a 1 second delay) as opposed to the UH-1H (for a 2 second delay). To me this indicates a technique difference, because in a sterile world they should be the same curve.
I still question the validity of the test and the need for the curve. It hasn't stopped loggers, fire fighters or anyone else from operating much of their time square in the middle of the "avoid" areas.
I have little experience in OH-58's, but I do know that there is a difference in rotor rpm in the OH-58A and 206B. Also, if you compare Bell 205 and UH-1H HV's you will see that the 205 HV is set at a higher OGE height (for a 1 second delay) as opposed to the UH-1H (for a 2 second delay). To me this indicates a technique difference, because in a sterile world they should be the same curve.
I still question the validity of the test and the need for the curve. It hasn't stopped loggers, fire fighters or anyone else from operating much of their time square in the middle of the "avoid" areas.
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,835
Likes: 3
From: Philadelphia PA
If the HV curve did nothing but warn people that they are operating in an area where they need to be absolutely spring loaded to reacting to an engine failure, then it has succeeded. Spring loaded means - knowing all the various symptoms of the failure, knowing what you're going to do ahead of time - i.e. where you're going to go, how you're going to try to do it, and so on.
if it does that, then it's succeeded.
For those flying helicopters with more than 9 seats, it also means that the authority is expecting a higher level of safety from these helicopters, and that it's a limitation. You simply must not fly there to put all those bodies in danger.
Darkhorse - not that familiar with the 205/UH-1 charts. I'm surprised the military one is slightly smaller however!
if it does that, then it's succeeded.
For those flying helicopters with more than 9 seats, it also means that the authority is expecting a higher level of safety from these helicopters, and that it's a limitation. You simply must not fly there to put all those bodies in danger.
Darkhorse - not that familiar with the 205/UH-1 charts. I'm surprised the military one is slightly smaller however!
