CCC, CRM and MCC for helicopter
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CRM’s function, in the guise of better crew interaction, is actually to facilitate the decision making process.
You have it the wrong way round!
And parts of the official decision making process are actually problem solving, but we won't go into that here.........
Phil
You have it the wrong way round!
And parts of the official decision making process are actually problem solving, but we won't go into that here.........
Phil
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I think CRM is a great communication tool that all crew should be aware of, and have attended the course. I did a refresher course the other day and it was good to be reminded of things that go wrong and that they could have been prevented had CRM been used.
My opinion is that newbies that have not had there first fright
and survived it, actually don't have the insight into when is this actually going to get ugly....
A new comm pilot (including myself when I got my comm) is useless and all you want to do is please your new employer 
it is up to us the more experienced guys to somehow come up with a way of teaching newbies from our experiences and not too let them have that big fright that they cant learn from.
With regards to the above Pilot A, the PPL he should get his comm if he wants to fly pax around, he being the boss and only a ppl is the weekest link here,(GOODBYE)
these are the type of pilots who have no regard to aviation safety, he is a bussiness man and no-one can tell him what to do
As for Pilot B, Don't allow a PPL or Boss to be in controll when you doing a comercial flight. Fly alone because bosses like that only use you because they know you going to be easy prey
Great thread, hope you newbies out there can learn a little from this
My opinion is that newbies that have not had there first fright
and survived it, actually don't have the insight into when is this actually going to get ugly.... A new comm pilot (including myself when I got my comm) is useless and all you want to do is please your new employer it is up to us the more experienced guys to somehow come up with a way of teaching newbies from our experiences and not too let them have that big fright that they cant learn from. With regards to the above Pilot A, the PPL he should get his comm if he wants to fly pax around, he being the boss and only a ppl is the weekest link here,(GOODBYE)
these are the type of pilots who have no regard to aviation safety, he is a bussiness man and no-one can tell him what to do As for Pilot B, Don't allow a PPL or Boss to be in controll when you doing a comercial flight. Fly alone because bosses like that only use you because they know you going to be easy prey
Great thread, hope you newbies out there can learn a little from this
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The big CRM problem with a lot of noveau riche pilots (whose cars are more expensive than their helicopters 
) is that up until they come across a helicopter, or another pilot who is willing to say NO, everything they have touched has turned to gold and everything has gone their way, hence the frustration when they can't get to their house which naturally hasn't got a navaid within miles of the place.
I think CRM should be taught before any other subject during flying training, and you shouldn't get insurance until you get at least an 85% pass mark.
Phil
) is that up until they come across a helicopter, or another pilot who is willing to say NO, everything they have touched has turned to gold and everything has gone their way, hence the frustration when they can't get to their house which naturally hasn't got a navaid within miles of the place.I think CRM should be taught before any other subject during flying training, and you shouldn't get insurance until you get at least an 85% pass mark.
Phil
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The most unrealistic part of this scenario is that they didn’t crash. Poor decision-making is the major cause of weather related accidents amongst others. Decision-making is an important pilot skill and the PIC needs to learn to make them if he or she intends to live. That’s what being a pilot in command is!
One aspect of CRM is applying counter measures to poor decisions made by the PIC. CRM should not be regarded as the primary decision making process. In this case anyway the CRM process they used was way too late and its application may not have saved them (and thereby a failure). Decisions will every time.
One aspect of CRM is applying counter measures to poor decisions made by the PIC. CRM should not be regarded as the primary decision making process. In this case anyway the CRM process they used was way too late and its application may not have saved them (and thereby a failure). Decisions will every time.
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One aspect of CRM is applying counter measures to poor decisions made by the PIC. CRM should not be regarded as the primary decision making process. In this case anyway the CRM process they used was way too late and its application may not have saved them (and thereby a failure). Decisions will every time.
I've never met a faultless aircraft commander yet! Some come pretty close, but good CRM goes a hell of a long way to counter those imperfections, big or small.......
The scenario you suggested is too complete. It is obvious that they should not have pressed on considering the poor weather you describe. If you wind the story back to the point where the weather was initially deteriorating then that is much more interesting as the decision is not so clear cut.
As an aside before the CRM issue, I believe that unplanned IMC should always be avoided where possible. Even with a fully capable aircraft and crew, in the conditions described, I would land and check my planning before going IF. With the crew you describe I think they should land and shut down.
Against what others have implied, in my opinion the cockpit is not a democracy. There is a captain and he/she has the overall responsibility for the safety of the aircraft. I don't agree with this ODV principle as different people have different opinions. Are you honestly saying that if you have 5000 hrs on type and have a new PPL holder in the LHS, who is nervous flying with 600ft cloudbase and 3km viz because he has never seen it before, and suggests that you should go home you would knock it on the head? I don't think so. As captain, you should take the concerns on board to formulate your own decisions.
IMO CRM is the flow of ideas/information across a cockpit to achieve a safe and successful sortie. In the indicated story there are two obvious issues for CRM. The first is the captain didn't listen hard enough but equally the LHS pilot did not express his concerns correctly, pretty much the standard problems with all CRM issues. Subtle questions like 'you do realise you're breaking the law here?' and 'Do you have an IR? (even if you know the answer)' and if it is getting really dangerous maybe 'if you continue to flout the rules I am going to report you (although not ideal for the CRM for the rest of the sortie, it MAY get the point across)'.
If I had to pick one person most at fault it would be the captain. Quite apart from not listening properly he should be dragging out as much information from the rest of his crew as possible to enable him(her) to make the best decisions.
As an aside before the CRM issue, I believe that unplanned IMC should always be avoided where possible. Even with a fully capable aircraft and crew, in the conditions described, I would land and check my planning before going IF. With the crew you describe I think they should land and shut down.
Against what others have implied, in my opinion the cockpit is not a democracy. There is a captain and he/she has the overall responsibility for the safety of the aircraft. I don't agree with this ODV principle as different people have different opinions. Are you honestly saying that if you have 5000 hrs on type and have a new PPL holder in the LHS, who is nervous flying with 600ft cloudbase and 3km viz because he has never seen it before, and suggests that you should go home you would knock it on the head? I don't think so. As captain, you should take the concerns on board to formulate your own decisions.
IMO CRM is the flow of ideas/information across a cockpit to achieve a safe and successful sortie. In the indicated story there are two obvious issues for CRM. The first is the captain didn't listen hard enough but equally the LHS pilot did not express his concerns correctly, pretty much the standard problems with all CRM issues. Subtle questions like 'you do realise you're breaking the law here?' and 'Do you have an IR? (even if you know the answer)' and if it is getting really dangerous maybe 'if you continue to flout the rules I am going to report you (although not ideal for the CRM for the rest of the sortie, it MAY get the point across)'.
If I had to pick one person most at fault it would be the captain. Quite apart from not listening properly he should be dragging out as much information from the rest of his crew as possible to enable him(her) to make the best decisions.
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SAR Bloke
I'm with you. Most of the pilots that get into these situations are single pilot and or low time. CRM is not a hell of a lot of use to these guys. Nor is flying with some jerk executive who's business model is high risk and existance on the edge. You're not going to get sensible advise from someone who just has to make a appointment regardless. If you want to make a subject compulsory before you get a licence - make it decision making!
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If you want to make a subject compulsory before you get a licence - make it decision making!
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CCC and CRM for helicopter
Gentleman,
any experience with CRM / CCC? I’m working as a helicopter pilot in Austria and next month I will have to give a lesson about Crew Resource Management and Crew coordination concept in order to get my flight instructor rating. Unfortunately there are almost no muli-crew operations in Austria.
I found out that there are a few different way of interpreting CRM starting from the point of view from airliners till the crew coordination with doctors in the EMS (ACRM –Aeromedical Crew Resource Management).
If one of you has any experience or even material (maybe MC offshore flying in helicopters) I would be interested to hear your opinion.
I’m also interested if you think it’s bs for single pilot helicopter!
Cheers K.
any experience with CRM / CCC? I’m working as a helicopter pilot in Austria and next month I will have to give a lesson about Crew Resource Management and Crew coordination concept in order to get my flight instructor rating. Unfortunately there are almost no muli-crew operations in Austria.
I found out that there are a few different way of interpreting CRM starting from the point of view from airliners till the crew coordination with doctors in the EMS (ACRM –Aeromedical Crew Resource Management).
If one of you has any experience or even material (maybe MC offshore flying in helicopters) I would be interested to hear your opinion.
I’m also interested if you think it’s b
s for single pilot helicopter!Cheers K.
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It's certainly not bs for single-pilot helicopters, as the people who attend my courses have testified! Have you looked in the CRM forum? There's a thread in there about a central place for CRM material. You might find something there.
phil
phil
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The common basic themes of CRM tend to be: Crew cooperation, leadership and management, decision making, situational awareness, communication and human factors.
If you are single pilot, you may still be multi-crew, particularly in EMS or police ops, in which case all the above apply. Even if you are the only person in the helicopter, most of the above apply.
It doesnt matter whether you are in a helicopter, an airliner or a space shuttle, its about working in the safest and most efficient manner. Thats why it has been adopted as a concept in most safety-critical occupations (maritime, medical, firefighting to name but three).
There is stacks of info on the internet, although not a great deal is helicopter-specific. Look at accident reports - you can get some good info there. I use G-BBHM in training as an example of good CRM (available from AAIB website) There are many examples of bad CRM.
Good Luck
If you are single pilot, you may still be multi-crew, particularly in EMS or police ops, in which case all the above apply. Even if you are the only person in the helicopter, most of the above apply.
It doesnt matter whether you are in a helicopter, an airliner or a space shuttle, its about working in the safest and most efficient manner. Thats why it has been adopted as a concept in most safety-critical occupations (maritime, medical, firefighting to name but three).
There is stacks of info on the internet, although not a great deal is helicopter-specific. Look at accident reports - you can get some good info there. I use G-BBHM in training as an example of good CRM (available from AAIB website) There are many examples of bad CRM.
Good Luck
Last edited by Non-PC Plod; 2nd Mar 2009 at 10:15. Reason: bad speeeling
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MCCI(H)
Just wondering why under the JAA system-there is no Multicrew Cooperation Instructor courses (helicopter) MCCI(H) as opposed to JAA FCL 1 (Aircraft)? surely there should be a helicopter equivalent?
Any ideas?
Any ideas?
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As for the why, dont ask me, but for helicopters the MCCI qualification is included with the SFI/TRI authorisation. So,every SFI & TRI can teach MCC, even if he hasnt the foggiest idea what it is all about. Fortunately, at least in the UK, there is a requirement for instructors to be CRMI qualified, which is near as dammit the same thing. Unfortunately the wooly wording of JAA says that CRM instructors have to be appropriately qualified, without saying anything about what that qualification should be. So, in most European countries you can crack on and teach it as long as you can spell it! Its very frustrating -I'm trying to set up MCC courses in a country which has been paying lip-service to the idea for a while. To try to bring in best practice and instructor training, you start with a blank sheet and make it up as you go along!
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MCC and N3 rating. Where is best/cost?
Hi,
Just wondering where you go to get a rotary MCC rating? Have heard there aren't many courses in the UK but i'm prepared to go into mainland Europe.
Also where's the best place to go to get a Dauphin rating? Is the Dauphin cheaper than the S72?
**Safe flying is no accident **
Just wondering where you go to get a rotary MCC rating? Have heard there aren't many courses in the UK but i'm prepared to go into mainland Europe.
Also where's the best place to go to get a Dauphin rating? Is the Dauphin cheaper than the S72?
**Safe flying is no accident **
As far as single pilot ops go I believe CRM should mean Cockpit rather than Crew Resource Management - anyone and anything in it needs consideration and, as has been said elsewhere - the first unhappy voice is the one the pilot needs to hear and respond to. No matter how many hours you have or how much they are paying you, there are no bonus points for wrapping it into the ground.
