AW to cancel contracts with PZL Swidnik
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AW to cancel contracts with PZL Swidnik
It seems that after AW offer less $$ for 81% percent shares than Aero Vodochody and US partners (Boeing, Sikorski) , Pol Gov privatization agency selected Czechs to purchase PZL Swidnik.
Answer from AW was bitter, some development and airframe production contracts canceled overnight. AW still owns approx 9% of Swidnik shares. AW139 and AW149 was partly developed in Swidink.
Market may be again in oportunity to select nice good old W3A Sokols and modern SW-4 which where pusshed on side during "cooperation" time with AW.
Hope to see some S76D airframes there on next visit
Answer from AW was bitter, some development and airframe production contracts canceled overnight. AW still owns approx 9% of Swidnik shares. AW139 and AW149 was partly developed in Swidink.
Market may be again in oportunity to select nice good old W3A Sokols and modern SW-4 which where pusshed on side during "cooperation" time with AW.
Hope to see some S76D airframes there on next visit
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Originally Posted by 9Aplus
Market may be again in oportunity to select nice good old W3A Sokols and modern SW-4
Answer from AW was bitter, some development and airframe production contracts canceled overnight. AW still owns approx 9% of Swidnik shares. AW139 and AW149 was partly developed in Swidink.
Hope to see some S76D airframes there on next visit
I/C
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#1 Forum ?widnika • Zobacz w?tek - Prywatyzacja WSK
PZL ?widnik bez zamówie? AgustaWestland - Rzeczpospolita
PZL ?widnik bez zamówie? AgustaWestland - Rzeczpospolita
Last edited by 9Aplus; 27th Feb 2009 at 07:41.
Thread Starter
@Arakis
from other forums I know that you are well informed, but if you ask me this time
bribe and blackmail is not enough to move balance on AW side.
What I know about PZL Swidnik and W3A & SW4, both are good reliable products which can be marketed well WW, one of the reasons why that was not the case in past was AW influence....
Now AW have trouble with VH71 and NH90 orders and only airliner with AW139 Copterline is gone on line Helsinki - Talin, offshore orders are questionable on crude oil level bellow 40$.
So AW is looking to India and TATA, not aviation business at all
On the other hand with AW in Swidnik bellow programs will be canceled so my vote is against AW.
http://aeronet.pl/pazdziernik_2008/2...ion-Valley.pdf
Taking bets
from other forums I know that you are well informed, but if you ask me this time
bribe and blackmail is not enough to move balance on AW side.
What I know about PZL Swidnik and W3A & SW4, both are good reliable products which can be marketed well WW, one of the reasons why that was not the case in past was AW influence....
Now AW have trouble with VH71 and NH90 orders and only airliner with AW139 Copterline is gone on line Helsinki - Talin, offshore orders are questionable on crude oil level bellow 40$.
So AW is looking to India and TATA, not aviation business at all
On the other hand with AW in Swidnik bellow programs will be canceled so my vote is against AW.
http://aeronet.pl/pazdziernik_2008/2...ion-Valley.pdf
Taking bets
Last edited by 9Aplus; 27th Feb 2009 at 08:45.
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I have a slightly different perspective having done some work with PZL Swidnik in the past.
Technically, the W-3 is a pretty good helicopter. No one seems to know why it was never sold outside of some in Poland, a few in India(?) and two in Germany.
Did anyone hear about the W-3 being chained to the ground at the Berlin airshow in 1999 because the factory refused to pay money owed to a German? Not likely.
Anyone know the cost to overhaul a W-3 at it's ridiculously low overhaul time?
I asked perhaps the most senior man in Swidnik why someone should buy a W-3 and his response was 'because it's cheap' - had no idea of how to sell, or what great features his helicopter had. He's still there, from what I understand.
Engineering was pretty good, management much the other way.
There was a good reason why Sikorsky didn't buy the Swidnik factory and bought another Polish factory.
Sadly, the very good design and construction folks at the factory are suffering because of management.
Technically, the W-3 is a pretty good helicopter. No one seems to know why it was never sold outside of some in Poland, a few in India(?) and two in Germany.
Did anyone hear about the W-3 being chained to the ground at the Berlin airshow in 1999 because the factory refused to pay money owed to a German? Not likely.
Anyone know the cost to overhaul a W-3 at it's ridiculously low overhaul time?
I asked perhaps the most senior man in Swidnik why someone should buy a W-3 and his response was 'because it's cheap' - had no idea of how to sell, or what great features his helicopter had. He's still there, from what I understand.
Engineering was pretty good, management much the other way.
There was a good reason why Sikorsky didn't buy the Swidnik factory and bought another Polish factory.
Sadly, the very good design and construction folks at the factory are suffering because of management.
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There were some W-3s sold to Korea, few were given to Czech in exchange for their MiG-29s, and few sold around the world. In the end Heliseco (that belongs to PZL Swidnik) is buying back what they can for their own operations.
There is no real reason why to buy W-3, even here in Poland. They cost around 6-8 mln USD a piece... you can buy Bell 412 for that and have more capable aircraft with far better customer service and lower operation costs - and B412 is not really a benchmark today. BTW good luck purchasing new engines for W-3
Sikorsky bought PZL Mieliec because they could (Swidnik was not for sale at that time). Mielec was going to bankrupt soon, and Sikorsky paid all its debts + some. Situation with PZL Swidnik is totally different. And apparently it doesn't matter who will buy it now - what matters is who will have it in 5 years. Aero buying it and then selling to AW is very probable.
There is no real reason why to buy W-3, even here in Poland. They cost around 6-8 mln USD a piece... you can buy Bell 412 for that and have more capable aircraft with far better customer service and lower operation costs - and B412 is not really a benchmark today. BTW good luck purchasing new engines for W-3
Sikorsky bought PZL Mieliec because they could (Swidnik was not for sale at that time). Mielec was going to bankrupt soon, and Sikorsky paid all its debts + some. Situation with PZL Swidnik is totally different. And apparently it doesn't matter who will buy it now - what matters is who will have it in 5 years. Aero buying it and then selling to AW is very probable.
Thread Starter
Lead time for W3 engines is 12-14 months, but same is with all other except maybe TV3 from Rus.
Who can be proud about AW or EC after sale product support?
How about spare parts for that AB212 or 412, you need to order them 12 months in advance too. Bell parts directly forbidden
under EASA.
Who the hell switch light off....
Who can be proud about AW or EC after sale product support?
How about spare parts for that AB212 or 412, you need to order them 12 months in advance too. Bell parts directly forbidden
under EASA.Who the hell switch light off....
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Umm... you do realize that production line of PZL-10W engines was closed for some time, and restarted recently, and all parts and complete engines go for Polish and Czech military first, and the waiting line for civilians is actually somewhere near 24 months I heard the Germans are not very happy about it.
Anyway, who cares, as there are only about 15 W-3 helicopters worldwide that don't belong to Swidnik or military of Poland and Czech. With Bell at least you know, there are 800+ other helicopters waiting for spares too, and you can get those spares no matter where you are. And I'm not talking about licensed build Agusta's x12... are they even being made today ?
I heard the Germans are not very happy about it.Anyway, who cares, as there are only about 15 W-3 helicopters worldwide that don't belong to Swidnik or military of Poland and Czech. With Bell at least you know, there are 800+ other helicopters waiting for spares too, and you can get those spares no matter where you are. And I'm not talking about licensed build Agusta's x12... are they even being made today ?
Thread Starter
Smart people purchase 10W engine before emergency need, price is sustainable...
if your pilots burn second bad luck or bad pilot.
Any way it is much more probability that they will hot start any Allison than 10W or any Rus origin turbine.
See above, pdf on my response to Arrakis, new main gear reductor and new turbines like in Super Linx are not too far....
if your pilots burn second bad luck or bad pilot.
Any way it is much more probability that they will hot start any Allison than 10W or any Rus origin turbine.
See above, pdf on my response to Arrakis, new main gear reductor and new turbines like in Super Linx are not too far....
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Its a multi year project in time when the company is being sold, what are the chances of those projects (W-3-II and SW-5) surviving ? Close to none from where I'm siting. Too little, too late. Nobody except Polish military would buy it anyway... oh yeah I forgot, they will buy Blackhawks
Although I will feel relief soon, knowing my tax money are not being wasted on that darn thing anymore
Although I will feel relief soon, knowing my tax money are not being wasted on that darn thing anymore
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AW to un-cancel contracts with PZL Swidnik
AgustaWestland acquires helicopters and aerostructures manufacturer PZL-Swidnik
On a semi-related topic, it's interesting to note that AFSOC now operates two Sikorsky types again, after retiring the Pave Low last year: joining the Pave Hawk in service is the M-28 Skytruck, produced by PZL-Mielic, which was acquired by SAC in 2007.
I/C
On a semi-related topic, it's interesting to note that AFSOC now operates two Sikorsky types again, after retiring the Pave Low last year: joining the Pave Hawk in service is the M-28 Skytruck, produced by PZL-Mielic, which was acquired by SAC in 2007.
I/C
Thread Starter
Nice part of sales and development within PZL Swidnik have long timehope for that move, hope it will be for mutual benefit of both sides....
This means> No, finally no more W3A for us.... future is questionable,
maybe only in SW5 shape, pity, it was nice powerful machine for 6M USD only
On the other hand, SW4 market share now can rise (price too) it fits well in rest of
AW range.
Main reason for this purchase (and all back side games) was AW101 production
for Poland.
Greetings from MAKS2009
Will have to wait 1-2 years to see, what will be the outcome of this owner change. As for today, rather a good choice considering the other eventuality.
Nice picture from Russia. Some more?
Arrakis
Nice picture from Russia. Some more?
Arrakis
