Bell 540
Joined: May 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
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From: Downeast
Knowing Nick Lappos, being an old Cobra Pilot (operative word being "old") he will have topped a Jet Ranger with a Bell 540 rotor system and we'll have this years new roll out. Wait a minute.....did they not already do that and called it a 222?
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 186
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From: US
Yes, BH222A usually @125-130 knots IAS with a modest load at ISA SL and MT 80%.
What little Cobra flying I did I enjoyed, once it got through translational, but preferred the UH1C Charlie model due to total four crewmembers i.e. more eyes, and much better lateral coverage in a break or while low-bird on VR.
Take a strong UH1H up to short of blade stall and it'll slowly walk away from an armed AH1G; much to the surprise of all us one day in 1971 in a far off place when a bit short on fuel.
What little Cobra flying I did I enjoyed, once it got through translational, but preferred the UH1C Charlie model due to total four crewmembers i.e. more eyes, and much better lateral coverage in a break or while low-bird on VR.
Take a strong UH1H up to short of blade stall and it'll slowly walk away from an armed AH1G; much to the surprise of all us one day in 1971 in a far off place when a bit short on fuel.
Joined: Jul 2002
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From: Lost in thought
What's in a name?
No such thing as a Bell 540. And as far as the rotor system goes, I thought it was called the "680 rotor system."
I can't even see how a 540 fits in the Bell naming convention. The MAPL series were all 3s (351, 381, 382) for third generation. But that was an engineering model referencing. The only thing to come out of MAPL has been the 429 which is the MAPL 382 airframe, MAPL rotor blades, with 427 powerplant and newly designed drive system, hub, and tail rotor.
Mind you the Bell model-naming convention defies convention. About the only consistent thing has been that the first digit correspond to the number of blades. At times there has been reference to pax (i.e. the 609 has 6 blades and carries 9 people, a 412 has 4 blades carries about 12 pax. ) Sometimes the number includ the crew, sometines it doesn't Sometimes Bell thinks its Boeing and starts to sequence just the center digit (i.e. 407, 427, 417). Sometimes it has added digits in normal counting fashion, but that was back in the 60s and 70s. i.e. 204,205 to 206, 209 was the Cobra, then 212, 214, etc. I think there were models in between the gaps - being variants that were prototypes or didn't make it. But then the 206 became the 406 for 4 blades (OH-58) then it evolved to become the 407. But when the 407 was evolved into a twin, and a "2" was inserted in the middle to make it a 427. Actually, I think the "222" evolved in sequence, but then it somehow progressed to the "230" as a single step (why add 8??) and then became a 430 when it went to 4-blades.
The initial improvements to the 427 were supposed to be called the 428. But that number is considered bad luck in some cultures, so it was initally dubbed the 427s3i (That's how it was displayed at HAI 2004. Ask Sandy Kinkade the story behind that some time.
) In 2005, when it took on the MAPL airframe, it became the 429.
So by logic, a 540 would be five-bladed and carry 40 people, or have 4 engines and carry 0 people, or be the 40th design in a 5-bladed family of designs....
I can't even see how a 540 fits in the Bell naming convention. The MAPL series were all 3s (351, 381, 382) for third generation. But that was an engineering model referencing. The only thing to come out of MAPL has been the 429 which is the MAPL 382 airframe, MAPL rotor blades, with 427 powerplant and newly designed drive system, hub, and tail rotor.
Mind you the Bell model-naming convention defies convention. About the only consistent thing has been that the first digit correspond to the number of blades. At times there has been reference to pax (i.e. the 609 has 6 blades and carries 9 people, a 412 has 4 blades carries about 12 pax. ) Sometimes the number includ the crew, sometines it doesn't Sometimes Bell thinks its Boeing and starts to sequence just the center digit (i.e. 407, 427, 417). Sometimes it has added digits in normal counting fashion, but that was back in the 60s and 70s. i.e. 204,205 to 206, 209 was the Cobra, then 212, 214, etc. I think there were models in between the gaps - being variants that were prototypes or didn't make it. But then the 206 became the 406 for 4 blades (OH-58) then it evolved to become the 407. But when the 407 was evolved into a twin, and a "2" was inserted in the middle to make it a 427. Actually, I think the "222" evolved in sequence, but then it somehow progressed to the "230" as a single step (why add 8??) and then became a 430 when it went to 4-blades.
The initial improvements to the 427 were supposed to be called the 428. But that number is considered bad luck in some cultures, so it was initally dubbed the 427s3i (That's how it was displayed at HAI 2004. Ask Sandy Kinkade the story behind that some time.
) In 2005, when it took on the MAPL airframe, it became the 429. So by logic, a 540 would be five-bladed and carry 40 people, or have 4 engines and carry 0 people, or be the 40th design in a 5-bladed family of designs....
Joined: Feb 2001
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 448
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From: Sometimes here, sometimes there
Maybe it was really a Bell 450?
Photo Bell Helicopter Bell 450 C-BCHD
Definitely 4 blades, not sure about the seating capacity for 50 pax
Photo Bell Helicopter Bell 450 C-BCHD
Definitely 4 blades, not sure about the seating capacity for 50 pax
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 813
Likes: 2
From: the hills of halton
Not to mention the bell 48 and bell 61
Bell HSL - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
If you think a single teetering rotor is scary imagine two of them
And the 540 was probably someones idea of a joke sorry for posting
Bell HSL - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
If you think a single teetering rotor is scary imagine two of them
And the 540 was probably someones idea of a joke sorry for posting
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 186
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From: US
540 rotor system
Bell 540 refers to the rotor system, not a model of helicopter. The -10 US Army Pilot Operator manual, whatever it was called, can't remember, used "540 rotor system" to denote the big barn doors hung as rotor blades on the UH1C and AH1G.
As to getting out of the air conditioned cockpit of an AH1G in preference to the unairconditioned UH1C, comfort was not a concern for me in RVN, survival was. The Cobra was not as survivable as the UH1C when various scenarios cropped up.
As to getting out of the air conditioned cockpit of an AH1G in preference to the unairconditioned UH1C, comfort was not a concern for me in RVN, survival was. The Cobra was not as survivable as the UH1C when various scenarios cropped up.
Joined: Aug 2007
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From: Texas
The 540 rotor system was also installed on the UH-1M and some of the UH-1E's, as well as the AH-1Q, R, and most S's. It was a 44 ft. diameter rotor with a 27 inch chord on the "door hinge" rotor head, and this system was more optimal for higher speed flight. I am not surprised that the Chinook could out run the AH-1G, considering that the Cobra probably had a load of 2.75 inch rockets, 4000 rounds of 7.62 mm, 300 rounds of 40mm grenades and possibly 1000 rds. of 20mm. I flew them in RVN as well as in training and testing in the states and we were always near max.GW. The Vne on the AH-1G was 190KIAS which was only achievable in a dive. Without bullets, rockets, etc.I suspect it could keep up with an unloaded Chinook.
Joined: Sep 2007
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From: US
Darkhorse30
Darkhorse30 - sounds like a zone D callsign.
Right, the UH1M INFANT had the 540, as well as a forward CofG problem. The preproduction AH1 had a Vne of 220 and sans pods, armament, ammo, etc. that and the production AH1G could outrun the Chinook with ease, providing the skid cross tube farings were installed (Vne restricted without all four - I seem to remember).
WIII
Darkhorse30 - sounds like a zone D callsign.
Right, the UH1M INFANT had the 540, as well as a forward CofG problem. The preproduction AH1 had a Vne of 220 and sans pods, armament, ammo, etc. that and the production AH1G could outrun the Chinook with ease, providing the skid cross tube farings were installed (Vne restricted without all four - I seem to remember).
WIII
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 65
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From: Texas
WIII
I saw a UH-1M with the INFANT system in late 69. I may be wrong but I think that all of the old C's were converted to M's later, and I think that the big difference was the replacement of the engine with the T53-L-13. The Army was using a bunch of old UH-1M's at White Sands Missile Range as target drones. A look at the FAA Type Certificate Data Base does not show any UH-1C's or M's. I still have my old AH-1G dash ten, as well as the ones for the AH-1S (and F's). I would rather be in a Cobra in a fight than a C or M because we carried more bang and were skinny, faster and hard to hit. Just don't do your breaks over the target.
Are you referring to War Zone D? I was stationed at Phu Loi (near War Zone D), then Soc Trang, and Can Tho.
I saw a UH-1M with the INFANT system in late 69. I may be wrong but I think that all of the old C's were converted to M's later, and I think that the big difference was the replacement of the engine with the T53-L-13. The Army was using a bunch of old UH-1M's at White Sands Missile Range as target drones. A look at the FAA Type Certificate Data Base does not show any UH-1C's or M's. I still have my old AH-1G dash ten, as well as the ones for the AH-1S (and F's). I would rather be in a Cobra in a fight than a C or M because we carried more bang and were skinny, faster and hard to hit. Just don't do your breaks over the target.
Are you referring to War Zone D? I was stationed at Phu Loi (near War Zone D), then Soc Trang, and Can Tho.
Joined: May 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 18,633
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From: Downeast
I am a Charter member of WOPA, Phu Loi Branch, Geronimo Chapter!
As I have stated in the past....the only way a Cobra can keep up with a Chinook is while riding on a sling underneath the Hook!
As I have stated in the past....the only way a Cobra can keep up with a Chinook is while riding on a sling underneath the Hook!
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 114
Likes: 8
From: In the gutter..........
I have to confess to being the originator of the Bell 540 rumour. It was never posted on here, but made its way here from Just Helicopters!
Nothing like a good rumour when nothing exciting is happening.
Nothing like a good rumour when nothing exciting is happening.