Fires in NSW & Victoria
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 900
Likes: 26
From: The Wild West... and Oz
206dvr,
call the following if you like. It can't hurt.
The Helicopter Group
Heli-Serv
Professional Helicopter Services
(all contracted on fires with 206's and in Melbourne)
Minimums for Vic fires are: 1500TT, 100 on type, fire ex, complete online DSE Wildfire Awareness course. At least that is what it used to be I think. The operators will know.
call the following if you like. It can't hurt.
The Helicopter Group
Heli-Serv
Professional Helicopter Services
(all contracted on fires with 206's and in Melbourne)
Minimums for Vic fires are: 1500TT, 100 on type, fire ex, complete online DSE Wildfire Awareness course. At least that is what it used to be I think. The operators will know.
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 163
Likes: 0
From: India
Just came across this official aircraft list being used in victoria....
http://www.dse.vic.gov.au/fires/upda...rcraftlist.htm
http://www.dse.vic.gov.au/fires/upda...rcraftlist.htm
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 128
Likes: 7
From: Melbourne, Australia
Huge thanks to all the guys who have been working so hard, particularly those who attended Redesdale. Our new home in the bush, only four weeks since we got the keys, was a scary place to be on Saturday.
We eat a lot of thick smoke and, as naive POMS, we learned to make a "fire plan" in about thirty minutes when the wind changed. All well in the end for us, so sad for so many others.
Stay safe guys. Surreal times indeed.
JerryG
We eat a lot of thick smoke and, as naive POMS, we learned to make a "fire plan" in about thirty minutes when the wind changed. All well in the end for us, so sad for so many others.
Stay safe guys. Surreal times indeed.
JerryG
Joined: Aug 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 4,411
Likes: 83
From: Gold Coast, Australia
These photos are from the Herald Sun's readers pictures page, here.
Shane Quinn took this picture on Saturday February 7 from his balcony in Narre Warren, North of the fire that swept along Crawley Road & up into Harkaway. What started as a grass fire quickly spread into an inferno until the combined efforts of the CFA and the Elvis Ariel (sic) support helicopter brought it under control.
Photo taken by Chris Roche of bushfires at Narre Warren North, Harkaway.
Photo taken by Chris Roche of bushfires at Narre Warren North, Harkaway.
Shane Quinn took this picture on Saturday February 7 from his balcony in Narre Warren, North of the fire that swept along Crawley Road & up into Harkaway. What started as a grass fire quickly spread into an inferno until the combined efforts of the CFA and the Elvis Ariel (sic) support helicopter brought it under control.
Photo taken by Chris Roche of bushfires at Narre Warren North, Harkaway.
Photo taken by Chris Roche of bushfires at Narre Warren North, Harkaway.
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
From: scandi
What is the battle plan for the large helicopters wrt these fires? I assume there is little point trying to fight the fires on a large front so do they just remain at the ready to deal to the smaller localised fires such as we see in the above photo?
Grumpy
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 205
Likes: 0
From: 35-21 South 149-06 East
Rotorheads are heroes too
I must say I am a bit disappointed that in all of the very well deserved thank yous to the CFA, SES, Fire Brigades, armed forces, emergency services, ambulance, police and others, there is not more up front acknowlgement of what you rotorheads are doing. Many pictures of you guys (and gals) in action on the TV - but never a close up. Only spectacular shots of your 'war horse' in action.
ABC TV - how about a behind the scenes video seeing the fight from their point of view.
But thanks anyway.
ABC TV - how about a behind the scenes video seeing the fight from their point of view.
But thanks anyway.
Joined: Aug 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 4,411
Likes: 83
From: Gold Coast, Australia
Melbourne Herald Sun
Water bombing aircraft grounded on Black Saturday, inquiry told
* Norrie Ross
* From: Herald Sun
* April 19, 2010 1:33PM
SOME firefighting aircraft were not available to fight the Black Saturday bushfires because they were grounded by weather conditions or overheated due to the extreme conditions, the bushfires royal commission heard today.
Nicholas Ryan, the head of the state aircraft unit on February 7 last year, told the commission that a number of factors limited the uses of aircraft on very high fire danger days.
A large number of aircraft, including Elvis-type air cranes, were used on Black Saturday but they were mostly exclusively used for asset protection and not to stop the spread of the fires across the state.
Among the incidents that hampered aerial operations on the day was when an aircraft fighting the devastating Kilmore East fire overheated, a helicopter dispatched to the Bendigo fire couldn't get off the ground and a helicopter was stood down at Churchill when it was also grounded.
Mr Ryan said that on Code Red fire days it was almost impossible to get aircraft quickly enough to the source of fires to have any effect on the spread.
"Once a fire reaches half the size of this room on a day like that you'd be very lucky to do anything with it," he said.
Mr Ryan said that the massive DC10 aircraft brought to Victoria for evaluation during the 09/10 fire season would unlikely to have had much effect on the fire like the one that overwhelmed Marysville.
"That aircraft is a line building aircraft. Most of the work carried out on February 7th was asset protection," Mr Ryan said.
The DC10 cost the Victorian Government $10 million for the 60-day contract and it has the ability to drop fire retardant line of 500m by 30m.
Commissioner Ron McLeod asked why a town like Marysville could not have been protected if the DC10 was available.
Mr Ryan said that the aircraft could only help stop the spread of a fire if the spotting distance was not greater than the width of fire retardant line.
Counsel assisting, Melinda Richards, said there was evidence the Murrindindi fire that hit Marysville was spotting at a distance of 5km.
"It's (the DC10) unlikely to have much impact in those fire weather conditions," Ms Richards suggested.
"That would seem logical," Mr Ryan said.
Mr Ryan said the standing costs of of Victoria's fire fighting aerial fleet was $18 million.
It cost $20,000 a day for an air crane in standing charges plus $11,000 a day if it was operating.
Mr Ryan admitted that there were communication problems on Black Saturday with aircraft caused by the volume of radio traffic and a lack of "radio discipline" among operators and pilots.
The hearing is continuing.
* Norrie Ross
* From: Herald Sun
* April 19, 2010 1:33PM
SOME firefighting aircraft were not available to fight the Black Saturday bushfires because they were grounded by weather conditions or overheated due to the extreme conditions, the bushfires royal commission heard today.
Nicholas Ryan, the head of the state aircraft unit on February 7 last year, told the commission that a number of factors limited the uses of aircraft on very high fire danger days.
A large number of aircraft, including Elvis-type air cranes, were used on Black Saturday but they were mostly exclusively used for asset protection and not to stop the spread of the fires across the state.
Among the incidents that hampered aerial operations on the day was when an aircraft fighting the devastating Kilmore East fire overheated, a helicopter dispatched to the Bendigo fire couldn't get off the ground and a helicopter was stood down at Churchill when it was also grounded.
Mr Ryan said that on Code Red fire days it was almost impossible to get aircraft quickly enough to the source of fires to have any effect on the spread.
"Once a fire reaches half the size of this room on a day like that you'd be very lucky to do anything with it," he said.
Mr Ryan said that the massive DC10 aircraft brought to Victoria for evaluation during the 09/10 fire season would unlikely to have had much effect on the fire like the one that overwhelmed Marysville.
"That aircraft is a line building aircraft. Most of the work carried out on February 7th was asset protection," Mr Ryan said.
The DC10 cost the Victorian Government $10 million for the 60-day contract and it has the ability to drop fire retardant line of 500m by 30m.
Commissioner Ron McLeod asked why a town like Marysville could not have been protected if the DC10 was available.
Mr Ryan said that the aircraft could only help stop the spread of a fire if the spotting distance was not greater than the width of fire retardant line.
Counsel assisting, Melinda Richards, said there was evidence the Murrindindi fire that hit Marysville was spotting at a distance of 5km.
"It's (the DC10) unlikely to have much impact in those fire weather conditions," Ms Richards suggested.
"That would seem logical," Mr Ryan said.
Mr Ryan said the standing costs of of Victoria's fire fighting aerial fleet was $18 million.
It cost $20,000 a day for an air crane in standing charges plus $11,000 a day if it was operating.
Mr Ryan admitted that there were communication problems on Black Saturday with aircraft caused by the volume of radio traffic and a lack of "radio discipline" among operators and pilots.
The hearing is continuing.
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,937
Likes: 28
From: UK/OZ
The transcript is worth a read.
The witness evidence was that ON A BAD DAY, unless a heli gets airborn quickly it is good for assett protection only.
However Council indicated that Narrewareen and another fire was contained by Elvis on Feb 7th.
In general commissioners were interested in the time it takes to task aircraft.
They were exploring the notion that a higher number of light utility helicopters, which could automatically respond on pager (as in WA) rather than waiting 30(?) minutes for three levels of admin to task, as in Victoria, would have better chance to deliver water to the fire when it could do some good. 1st 900 liter drop within 15 minutes (followed by more drops) or a 9000 liter drop within 45 minutes?
Also yesterday a very experienced air attack supervisor described the fire conditions as not unprecedented in respect to rate of spread over a short period of time, but unprecedented that the conditions did not abate. He described flying conditions as marginal and uncomfortable but not unsafe.
In my view this statement gave more credence to the idea of a small quantity of water delivered early is in general a better plan than a large drop delivered later, by which time even if the attack is successfull on the source of the blaze, the spotting effect is the horse that has since bolted.
other interesting fact was cost of retardant on DC10 is around A$35k per drop.
Estimated total cost per drop is around A$100k.(depending on number of drops)
That is a lot of time in light helis, even if they are responding to false alarms...
Mickjoebill
The witness evidence was that ON A BAD DAY, unless a heli gets airborn quickly it is good for assett protection only.
However Council indicated that Narrewareen and another fire was contained by Elvis on Feb 7th.
In general commissioners were interested in the time it takes to task aircraft.
They were exploring the notion that a higher number of light utility helicopters, which could automatically respond on pager (as in WA) rather than waiting 30(?) minutes for three levels of admin to task, as in Victoria, would have better chance to deliver water to the fire when it could do some good. 1st 900 liter drop within 15 minutes (followed by more drops) or a 9000 liter drop within 45 minutes?
Also yesterday a very experienced air attack supervisor described the fire conditions as not unprecedented in respect to rate of spread over a short period of time, but unprecedented that the conditions did not abate. He described flying conditions as marginal and uncomfortable but not unsafe.
In my view this statement gave more credence to the idea of a small quantity of water delivered early is in general a better plan than a large drop delivered later, by which time even if the attack is successfull on the source of the blaze, the spotting effect is the horse that has since bolted.
other interesting fact was cost of retardant on DC10 is around A$35k per drop.
Estimated total cost per drop is around A$100k.(depending on number of drops)
That is a lot of time in light helis, even if they are responding to false alarms...
Mickjoebill
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 378
Likes: 26
From: Australia
Saw a special on the DC10 , the tank system for it is 3 of the Erikson tanks same as on the Skycrane bolted onto the belly and it takes at least and hour to turnaround between drops, how many tanks of water could a Skycrane dropped in that time?
Seems to me a poor invesment , how many more Skycranes and Bell mediums could you get for the cost of the DC10?
Seems to me a poor invesment , how many more Skycranes and Bell mediums could you get for the cost of the DC10?
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
From: N/A
take the WA example: they use B3's with bellytanks and quick turnaround times, literally no or only minor power issues and a water capacity that is not bad at all.
how many B3's could you get for a skycrane? something i feel the fire authorities in VIC could think about in the future.
how many B3's could you get for a skycrane? something i feel the fire authorities in VIC could think about in the future.
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,957
Likes: 0
From: Australia
How many B3's are there? and can they fly them in cheaply from other areas, perhaps in a DC10 cargo carrier?
I heard from someone that they were the cheapest per litre of water delivered, I assume the standard B3 here?
i note somewhere in the proceedings a rare note of accord, on the burning off of dry matter in the cooler times.
Howvever they were talking about 1 to 2%, not the 8 to 12% as recommended by top CSIRO scientists. a long, long way to go me thinks.
but with the widespread rain last season, not long to prove it all again
cheers tet
I heard from someone that they were the cheapest per litre of water delivered, I assume the standard B3 here?
i note somewhere in the proceedings a rare note of accord, on the burning off of dry matter in the cooler times.
Howvever they were talking about 1 to 2%, not the 8 to 12% as recommended by top CSIRO scientists. a long, long way to go me thinks.
but with the widespread rain last season, not long to prove it all again
cheers tet
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 358
Likes: 0
From: On the move...
On black Saturday we were doing scenics in a BA at Echuca at the Southern 80 Ski race. We were not hampered by the heat to the extent that we couldn't fly. And we were carrying more than one pax! There's only one air attack supervisor per helicopter on fires.
The AS350 we had wasn't fitted out with DSE radios and we didn't (I still don't) have the experience to fly fires so we weren't involved.
But bigger is not always better. There is a contract in Vic that a plantation runs. They have a helicopter there that responses with the CFA and often gets there before the ground crew and deals with the threat. More helicopters, well placed and responding on pagers would be the way to go.
The AS350 we had wasn't fitted out with DSE radios and we didn't (I still don't) have the experience to fly fires so we weren't involved.
But bigger is not always better. There is a contract in Vic that a plantation runs. They have a helicopter there that responses with the CFA and often gets there before the ground crew and deals with the threat. More helicopters, well placed and responding on pagers would be the way to go.
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 441
Likes: 0
From: Tasmania and High Wollemi
quick reaction on fires
A recent study by some of the RFS in central west nsw and NPWS working the Sydney catchment found a significant reduction in large fires when quick reaction fixed and rotary wing aircraft were deployed simultaneously with the big red truck or the npws striker.
Sparks and wildfires aka NPWS gave a public briefing at one of the towns on the blue mountains parks boundary.
Sydney catchment team use a BK117 together with a Raft team with a very good result. yes it costs but it is far cheaper than running some of the shambolic fire management big fire operations.
The fixed wing machine supporting crews around Orange has had a similar effect particularly in the more remote areas. often the Dromader and now airtractor reach the fire before the big red truck and ground crews.
Going back to the early days before systems and approvals an Agwagon with half a bag of super mixed in the hopper was one of the best quick reaction machines.
Should be more quick reaction and simultaneous dispatch.
Bring back Freddo.
Catseye
Sparks and wildfires aka NPWS gave a public briefing at one of the towns on the blue mountains parks boundary.
Sydney catchment team use a BK117 together with a Raft team with a very good result. yes it costs but it is far cheaper than running some of the shambolic fire management big fire operations.
The fixed wing machine supporting crews around Orange has had a similar effect particularly in the more remote areas. often the Dromader and now airtractor reach the fire before the big red truck and ground crews.
Going back to the early days before systems and approvals an Agwagon with half a bag of super mixed in the hopper was one of the best quick reaction machines.
Should be more quick reaction and simultaneous dispatch.
Bring back Freddo.
Catseye
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,937
Likes: 28
From: UK/OZ
A recent study by some of the RFS in central west nsw and NPWS working the Sydney catchment found a significant reduction in large fires when quick reaction fixed and rotary wing aircraft were deployed simultaneously with the big red truck or the npws striker.
Mickjoebill
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
From: Sydney
Just came across this official aircraft list being used in victoria....
http://www.dse.vic.gov.au/fires/upda...rcraftlist.htm
http://www.dse.vic.gov.au/fires/upda...rcraftlist.htm
