AS 350 hover question
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 42
Likes: 5
From: London
AS 350 hover question
happy new year, everyone.
quick question: I was watching a bunch of tv choppers over san francisco, most seeming to be AS 350, hover for more than an hour over a demonstration earlier this week. they maintained their positions quite remarkably well over a long period of time, which got me wondering if these guys were actively controlling their positions (=lots of work) or if there was an autopilot option that essentially hovered on the spot for them (=lean back and just wait).
can anyone fill me in?
quick question: I was watching a bunch of tv choppers over san francisco, most seeming to be AS 350, hover for more than an hour over a demonstration earlier this week. they maintained their positions quite remarkably well over a long period of time, which got me wondering if these guys were actively controlling their positions (=lots of work) or if there was an autopilot option that essentially hovered on the spot for them (=lean back and just wait).
can anyone fill me in?
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 299
Likes: 0
From: the great white north
hi and happy new year all.
yes, there are autopilot systems available for the 350 and they may well use them. i have never seen one as they are not usually installed in utility configured a/c. the 350 is very stable in the out of ground effect hover and would not be hard to keep stable for extended periods of time (especially of the winds are favourable). in ground effect they can be a bit of a handful but not bad once youget used to them.
cheers
FP
yes, there are autopilot systems available for the 350 and they may well use them. i have never seen one as they are not usually installed in utility configured a/c. the 350 is very stable in the out of ground effect hover and would not be hard to keep stable for extended periods of time (especially of the winds are favourable). in ground effect they can be a bit of a handful but not bad once youget used to them.
cheers
FP
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 557
Likes: 27
From: At home
Seasons Greetings!
Autopilot is one thing, but what you refer to would be 'Autohover' (requiring 4-axis autopilot), which I am quite sure you won't find in News reporting helicopters, specially not in the US. New-ships are generally loaded with enough weight as it is, and to handfly a 350 is not that difficult either. It's done all the time with precission long-line.
Auto-pilot systems in light helicopters as the 350 and Bell 206 series are generally not very common at all. Not to mention with Autohover capability...
Autopilot is one thing, but what you refer to would be 'Autohover' (requiring 4-axis autopilot), which I am quite sure you won't find in News reporting helicopters, specially not in the US. New-ships are generally loaded with enough weight as it is, and to handfly a 350 is not that difficult either. It's done all the time with precission long-line.
Auto-pilot systems in light helicopters as the 350 and Bell 206 series are generally not very common at all. Not to mention with Autohover capability...
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,081
Likes: 189
From: Redding CA, or on a fire somewhere
I used to fly for KRON the San Francisco NBC affiliate, (they are an independent news station now)----there is NO autopilot. Unless you are watching continuing coverage, they are not remaining in the hover all the time.
Back in the 90's we would all fly around in an orbit until our station wanted the "steady shot" to go live, at which point we would move into position and hover. We would all talk to each other and work out our own co-ordination and stay out of other peoples shot as best as possible. (The airspace over downtown San Francisco is not controlled by ATC).
Back in the 90's we would all fly around in an orbit until our station wanted the "steady shot" to go live, at which point we would move into position and hover. We would all talk to each other and work out our own co-ordination and stay out of other peoples shot as best as possible. (The airspace over downtown San Francisco is not controlled by ATC).
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 188
Likes: 0
From: UK
In many AS350 (with and without AP) you have a stabilisation system in the pitch, roll and yaw axis. It is not an auto-hover but due to the rotorsystem (semirigid three rotor blade) the AS350 has a tendency to "wobble" a bit. Therefore you have the stabilisation system for pilot comfort.
In hover you can have feets on the floor, so if you dont do too quick collective inputs the stabilitator will maintain your present heading.
T
In hover you can have feets on the floor, so if you dont do too quick collective inputs the stabilitator will maintain your present heading.
T
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 557
Likes: 27
From: At home
Tango
Would you please explain what this "stabilization system" is??
In all the 350's I have flown over the years(and seen for that matter), B,BA,B1,B2,B3+, I have never come across what you are refering to...
Maybe, you're referring to an optional trim-system...... which is a trim-system (that would not allow you feet of the pedals tough)
If you keep your feet on the floor as you say, you'll have "heading-hold", that would be around one of the axis, ie. AP installed. OR make you much cooler?! than me...
As for wobbling, yes it does very close to ground when on set-down mainly. (this does not come from the MR design by the way, but the fuselage aerodynamics, TR position and design) In OGE hover it's your own responsability to create the wobble....
Cheers
Would you please explain what this "stabilization system" is??
In all the 350's I have flown over the years(and seen for that matter), B,BA,B1,B2,B3+, I have never come across what you are refering to...
In many AS350 (with and without AP) you have a stabilisation system in the pitch, roll and yaw axis.
If you keep your feet on the floor as you say, you'll have "heading-hold", that would be around one of the axis, ie. AP installed. OR make you much cooler?! than me...
As for wobbling, yes it does very close to ground when on set-down mainly. (this does not come from the MR design by the way, but the fuselage aerodynamics, TR position and design) In OGE hover it's your own responsability to create the wobble....
Cheers
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,081
Likes: 189
From: Redding CA, or on a fire somewhere
Gomer Pylot
With respect--do I detect a hint of sarcasm?
Would it not have just been easier to help the man out and tell them that the "stabilitator" is just forward of the isolinear transwarp discriminator coil.
Obviously it does not work unless one locks the the avidyne resonator, and bear in mind to watch out for a failure of the sarium krellide phaser buffer which could under certain circumstances result in a less than perfect hover.
With respect--do I detect a hint of sarcasm?
Would it not have just been easier to help the man out and tell them that the "stabilitator" is just forward of the isolinear transwarp discriminator coil.
Obviously it does not work unless one locks the the avidyne resonator, and bear in mind to watch out for a failure of the sarium krellide phaser buffer which could under certain circumstances result in a less than perfect hover.
Joined: Oct 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 7,371
Likes: 926
From: Den Haag
To answer Krautland's question, the aircraft would be hand flown (as has been suggested) but the seemingly accurate hover would be to a large extent be deceptive because of their frame of reference. That's not to say they weren't hovering accurately, but if you were to see the same positional accuracy closer to the ground it may look less impressive!
A comparison would be if you've ever seen a military fast-jet display team : from the ground the poistion keeping looks rock solid, but from the cockpit there is a lot more apparent movement.
Similarly, if you are flying at 3000 ft and maintain your height within +/- 20 ft that seems pretty good, but if you are flying down the beach at 10 feet, that accuracy would be less satisfactory!
On the other hand, you would actually be able to maintain the 10 ft at about +/- 1 ft 
A comparison would be if you've ever seen a military fast-jet display team : from the ground the poistion keeping looks rock solid, but from the cockpit there is a lot more apparent movement.
Similarly, if you are flying at 3000 ft and maintain your height within +/- 20 ft that seems pretty good, but if you are flying down the beach at 10 feet, that accuracy would be less satisfactory!
On the other hand, you would actually be able to maintain the 10 ft at about +/- 1 ft
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 293
Likes: 0
From: foot of a mountain
The 350 MRH is described as a starflex semi-rigid type. It is semi-rigid iaw the old books because it has no drag damper as per the 76, 61, 330 and 332L2 types. It does however allow for dragging via the starflex and damper fitted to the blade root end which practically makes it a "fully articulated" head. The 332L1 has a similiar argument as the frequency damper is not a drag damper thus semi-rigid, but does allow inflight up to 2 degree drag angle due to it's elastomer build. It is difficult fitting this technolagy in to the old definitions, guess Sikorsky has the right idea by calling it a elastometric head. The 350 with it's droop ring allows for 3 dimensional movement inflight which definately does not comply with any traditional definitions in my opinion.
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 61
Likes: 0
From: South West
Guys, you may be thinking here of the AS355 Autopilot option.
This is the SFIM 318T system. It is primarily a Stability Augmentation System (SAS) with higher modes of operation making it an Autopilot system. There is also an optional Flight Director with Heading, ASI, ALT, VSI and NAV (Including approach & back course modes). The FD can be used independantly or can be coupled to the autopilot. An optional comparator of which is required for UK / European IFR certification.
It is a 3 Axis System and does not have 'Auto Hover'.
This is the SFIM 318T system. It is primarily a Stability Augmentation System (SAS) with higher modes of operation making it an Autopilot system. There is also an optional Flight Director with Heading, ASI, ALT, VSI and NAV (Including approach & back course modes). The FD can be used independantly or can be coupled to the autopilot. An optional comparator of which is required for UK / European IFR certification.
It is a 3 Axis System and does not have 'Auto Hover'.
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 157
Likes: 0
From: Australia
The 350 with it's droop ring allows for 3 dimensional movement inflight
Cheers,
TCF
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 168
Likes: 0
From: At home
In its original configuration, the 350 had no M/R droop restraint system. It was made available as a field retrofit in a Service Bulletin some time after the aircraft entered service.
For what it's worth, the Flight Manual states - "Of a semi-rigid design, the STARFLEX ROTOR HUB has no bearings nor lubrication system."
Note that it is the STARFLEX that is referred to as semi-rigid, not the rotor system.
For what it's worth, the Flight Manual states - "Of a semi-rigid design, the STARFLEX ROTOR HUB has no bearings nor lubrication system."
Note that it is the STARFLEX that is referred to as semi-rigid, not the rotor system.