Duty and Rest Period FAA
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 336
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Duty and Rest Period FAA
This is a question for folks flying Part 135 on this side of the pond. 135.263(C) talks about transportation "not local in character" being considered as duty time. What exactly is considered "local" ? One hour? two?. Is there any document that shows the FAA guidance on this.Or does anyone have any idea.
The reason I ask is because figures like one hour and two and within 60 miles or a 100 have been thrown around.Need something more substantial.
Thanks,
Alt3.
The reason I ask is because figures like one hour and two and within 60 miles or a 100 have been thrown around.Need something more substantial.
Thanks,
Alt3.
Cannot find anything in FAA dics right now---will look in detail later, however, other government departments, (USDA, DOI, CalFire--All Inter agency fire), define anything under 30 minutes is local in nature.
According to our POI, driving from ANY hotel no matter the distance is to be considered local in character (that's really anytime your customers complain for the loss of time available).
FAR 135.263 specifies that time spent in transportation non local in character is NOT PART OF YOUR REST PERIOD, but not that it is duty time.
FAR 135.263 specifies that time spent in transportation non local in character is NOT PART OF YOUR REST PERIOD, but not that it is duty time.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 336
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tottigol:
Not part of the rest period but not duty
.So what does that imply?
The scenario is this. Recently, a base was closed down(HEMS) and the aircraft moved to a location 65 miles away. The pilots take an average of an hour to an hour fifteen to commute one way.Assuming a flight that terminates at 14 hours ,the pilot reaches home after about 15.5 hours,when does he LEAVE HOME the next day?After 10 hours of rest or 8.5 hours of rest?
Alt3.
Not part of the rest period but not duty
.So what does that imply?The scenario is this. Recently, a base was closed down(HEMS) and the aircraft moved to a location 65 miles away. The pilots take an average of an hour to an hour fifteen to commute one way.Assuming a flight that terminates at 14 hours ,the pilot reaches home after about 15.5 hours,when does he LEAVE HOME the next day?After 10 hours of rest or 8.5 hours of rest?
Alt3.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: USA
Age: 61
Posts: 118
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Alouette,
A good question and I think it should feature more strongly on the list of things that the FAA needs to sort out in the EMS world. I worked EMS for several years on the West Coast and it was pretty common for pilots to commute 1 hr each way and not unheard of for some to spend 1.5 each way. So the mandatory 10 hrs rest becomes 7, even before they have family time and a meal. Think how that adds up over a week. (By the way 14 hr days were pretty common, because of late flights at the end of a 12 hr shift)
Of course the only way these guys could cope was to get a "quiet period nap", which is all well and good until they end up with a "busy period". But no pilot wants to push this as a "safety issue", because it would affect their lifestyle. And the employers don't want to push it because they know fine well that they would have to pay more to allow pilots to live closer to major metropolitan bases. And, of course, the FAA just ignores it.
A good question and I think it should feature more strongly on the list of things that the FAA needs to sort out in the EMS world. I worked EMS for several years on the West Coast and it was pretty common for pilots to commute 1 hr each way and not unheard of for some to spend 1.5 each way. So the mandatory 10 hrs rest becomes 7, even before they have family time and a meal. Think how that adds up over a week. (By the way 14 hr days were pretty common, because of late flights at the end of a 12 hr shift)
Of course the only way these guys could cope was to get a "quiet period nap", which is all well and good until they end up with a "busy period". But no pilot wants to push this as a "safety issue", because it would affect their lifestyle. And the employers don't want to push it because they know fine well that they would have to pay more to allow pilots to live closer to major metropolitan bases. And, of course, the FAA just ignores it.
Perhaps the FAA should adopt the same duty hour/rest period rules that over the road truckers have....which also include cumulative duty hours in a certain number of days before a mandatory rest period is required.
The FAA rules are far more lenient than the DOT rules for drivers.
But...we have to assume driving a truck is more intensive than flying an EMS helicopter at night in bad weather.
This link will take you to a detailed discussion of those rules and the scientific studies that under lie those decisions by the DOT.
Devil 49 might particularly find this interesting as he considers crew scheduling practices in the EMS industry to be part of the problem regard accidents.
http://www.jjkeller.com/informationc...&pageseq=10000
This is the limitation that is of interest.
The major change DOT has made is designed to bring drivers back to a more normal 24 hour day. The old rules had the effect of creating an 18 hour day....which then forced drivers to work odd hours with a rotating sleep period that changed with an 18 hour cycle vice a 24 hour cycle.
Consider the rosters that have you flip flopping between days, nights, and off days.....within the same week.
Where the DOT says "drive"...replace that with "fly"....and note the effect the seven day/eight day rule has on the current EMS rostering routines.
The FAA rules are far more lenient than the DOT rules for drivers.
But...we have to assume driving a truck is more intensive than flying an EMS helicopter at night in bad weather.
This link will take you to a detailed discussion of those rules and the scientific studies that under lie those decisions by the DOT.
Devil 49 might particularly find this interesting as he considers crew scheduling practices in the EMS industry to be part of the problem regard accidents.
http://www.jjkeller.com/informationc...&pageseq=10000
This is the limitation that is of interest.
May not drive after 60/70 hours on duty in 7/8 consecutive days.
* A driver may restart a 7/8 consecutive day period after taking 34 or more consecutive hours off duty.
* A driver may restart a 7/8 consecutive day period after taking 34 or more consecutive hours off duty.
Consider the rosters that have you flip flopping between days, nights, and off days.....within the same week.
Where the DOT says "drive"...replace that with "fly"....and note the effect the seven day/eight day rule has on the current EMS rostering routines.
Last edited by SASless; 13th Dec 2008 at 13:26.
Well, there are provisions for extended rest periods for those times you exceed your flight time (driving time) in your duty period.
30 minutes is an extra hour of rest, between 30 and 60 are two hours and over one hour of flight time brings the mandatory rest period to 16 hours.
Input and Alouette, how much do you price that EMS job before you realize you need to move?
65 miles may equate to up to two hours driving each way.
I believe most EMS 135 operators have requirements in place for pilots to live within a certain distance or driving time from the base.
Sorry to say that in this case the company is not to blame because the situation is not of their making.
30 minutes is an extra hour of rest, between 30 and 60 are two hours and over one hour of flight time brings the mandatory rest period to 16 hours.
Input and Alouette, how much do you price that EMS job before you realize you need to move?
65 miles may equate to up to two hours driving each way.
I believe most EMS 135 operators have requirements in place for pilots to live within a certain distance or driving time from the base.
Sorry to say that in this case the company is not to blame because the situation is not of their making.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 336
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tottigol:
I agree. If the base you picked was an hour or two drive time from home the problem is yours not the company's. However, in this case,(in the scenario I cited) the company chose to close the base where the pilots worked and lived and move it north without any duty time changes or guidance. When the managers were confronted about the duty time/rest period issue with regard to FAR 135.263, they said that the FAA considers everything under two hours as local. I can't find the documentation that supports that. I have e-mailed the FAA, and, since they are a Govt. agency, I don't expect a response during the weekend.Meanwhile, the pilots at that base continue to commute.
SAS less: I am also of the opinion that scheduling is part of our problems in EMS.Cumulative time, hours after midnight,extended rest periods etc. all are part of other FDTL's worldwide.Maybe the trucker's lobby in Washington is stronger than ours
.
Alt3.
I agree. If the base you picked was an hour or two drive time from home the problem is yours not the company's. However, in this case,(in the scenario I cited) the company chose to close the base where the pilots worked and lived and move it north without any duty time changes or guidance. When the managers were confronted about the duty time/rest period issue with regard to FAR 135.263, they said that the FAA considers everything under two hours as local. I can't find the documentation that supports that. I have e-mailed the FAA, and, since they are a Govt. agency, I don't expect a response during the weekend.Meanwhile, the pilots at that base continue to commute.
SAS less: I am also of the opinion that scheduling is part of our problems in EMS.Cumulative time, hours after midnight,extended rest periods etc. all are part of other FDTL's worldwide.Maybe the trucker's lobby in Washington is stronger than ours
.Alt3.
Alas it was the DOT over the objections of the truck companies that put these rules into effect.....CRASH and PATT amongst other radical folks had far more clout than did the trucking companies. Drivers had very little say so in the matter.
The changes all came about after a national uproar (probably media generated) over fatal car/truck crashes. We can no longer call them accidents, or talk about the non-commercial drivers being cause of 90 percent of the collisions.
That would be confusing the issue with facts which never gets in the way of a good Drive By Media expose.
The changes all came about after a national uproar (probably media generated) over fatal car/truck crashes. We can no longer call them accidents, or talk about the non-commercial drivers being cause of 90 percent of the collisions.
That would be confusing the issue with facts which never gets in the way of a good Drive By Media expose.
Alouette, sorry to hear about that however there are no limitations to what a company can do with their "community based" services.
I am afraid this occurrence is also quite widespread given the current competition level among similar operations in the USA.
The FAA shall support the operator more often than not.
That's one of the reasons I am back in the Oil & Gas industry.
I am afraid this occurrence is also quite widespread given the current competition level among similar operations in the USA.
The FAA shall support the operator more often than not.
That's one of the reasons I am back in the Oil & Gas industry.
Sasless,
I am currently working with DOT over driver rules for our fuel trucks. While on fire contract, our standard day is 9 hours, working 12 days on, 2 days off. If we end up on a fire, the "normal" day turns into 14 hours. Our fuel truck drivers "time out", with over 70 hours in 5 days, EVEN though they may not even drive the truck, but just sit at a helibase and re-fuel me every 2 or 3 hours. There is an exemption to the 70/8 rule that states:
FMCSA Part 395.1(d)(2)
Edited to add:
What is ironic, is that the pilots do not time out, unless we "fly" more than 36 hours in 6 days. As per "fire rule", both pilot and driver are required to have had two days off in the preceding 14, and we are limited to 14 hour duty day.
I am currently working with DOT over driver rules for our fuel trucks. While on fire contract, our standard day is 9 hours, working 12 days on, 2 days off. If we end up on a fire, the "normal" day turns into 14 hours. Our fuel truck drivers "time out", with over 70 hours in 5 days, EVEN though they may not even drive the truck, but just sit at a helibase and re-fuel me every 2 or 3 hours. There is an exemption to the 70/8 rule that states:
FMCSA Part 395.1(d)(2)
(d)(2) In the case of specially trained drivers of commercial motor vehicles which are specially constructed to service oil wells, on duty time shall not include waiting time at a natural gas or oil well site; provided, that all such time shall be fully and accurately accounted for in records to be maintained by the motor carrier. Such records shall be made available upon request of the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration.
I am quoting this rule in papers to my advantage, however I can see where the EMS companies would use it to "Their" advantage and say that with respect to pilot duty, "time spent waiting in an approved rest area is not considered duty".Edited to add:
What is ironic, is that the pilots do not time out, unless we "fly" more than 36 hours in 6 days. As per "fire rule", both pilot and driver are required to have had two days off in the preceding 14, and we are limited to 14 hour duty day.
Last edited by Gordy; 13th Dec 2008 at 17:03. Reason: To add an afterthought
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Over here
Posts: 1,030
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As long as the pilots accept the situation, it will continue. Complaining to the FAA might get the situation changed, but there may be other consequences. The company can remedy the situation by providing quarters at the base, as many do. It's not uncommon for apartments to be provided for commuting pilots at out of the way bases. In that case, if the pilots decide to drive home every day/night, it's their choice and they're responsible for getting enough rest.
Gordy Lad,
I fought that battle myself in years past.
The result was my driver changed out while I kept flogging about the fire or other work.
The DOT response to that exemption is they will not grant that to our industry as if they do for us...why heavens...they would have to do it for everyone then the exemption would be the rule and the rule would not be the rule.
Good luck on your fight....I am with you all the way kid!
Goofy ain't it....my driver laid up in the motel watching TV...or napping...me out flying in the heat....buzz the motel and wake him up....he fuels me....then back into the motel....so much for a college education, piles of flying licenses and tens of thousands of dollars spent on training.
I fought that battle myself in years past.
The result was my driver changed out while I kept flogging about the fire or other work.
The DOT response to that exemption is they will not grant that to our industry as if they do for us...why heavens...they would have to do it for everyone then the exemption would be the rule and the rule would not be the rule.
Good luck on your fight....I am with you all the way kid!
Goofy ain't it....my driver laid up in the motel watching TV...or napping...me out flying in the heat....buzz the motel and wake him up....he fuels me....then back into the motel....so much for a college education, piles of flying licenses and tens of thousands of dollars spent on training.
