Ok here we go light blue touch paper.........
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Europe
Posts: 535
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We've been here before folks and the reality is pay rates are - and should be - determined by market forces, end of story. Businesses will generally pay the least they need to in order to get a professional job done. Especially now.
The more demand exceeds supply, the lower the salary. And vice versa. The relative value of skill sets is a secondary issue.
The more demand exceeds supply, the lower the salary. And vice versa. The relative value of skill sets is a secondary issue.
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,576
Received 425 Likes
on
224 Posts
Yes, we've been here before because that's the way the whole business world works, not just in aviation.
If the customer demands a certain standard and it isn't available at the price offered, there are two choices. Either the price goes up or the standard comes down.
If a civvy trained pilot accepts a low salary, then surely he is as much to "blame" as a military trained pilot. Obviously this is happening now. We've had previous discussions about low hour pilots on here saying they will work for nothing and some even say they pay to ferry an aircraft to maintenance. I've grown tired of saying they shouldn't do it. It's the same argument but lower down the food chain.
If the customer demands a certain standard and it isn't available at the price offered, there are two choices. Either the price goes up or the standard comes down.
If a civvy trained pilot accepts a low salary, then surely he is as much to "blame" as a military trained pilot. Obviously this is happening now. We've had previous discussions about low hour pilots on here saying they will work for nothing and some even say they pay to ferry an aircraft to maintenance. I've grown tired of saying they shouldn't do it. It's the same argument but lower down the food chain.
Tightgit
Timex, I am glad you are happy where you are, but if you didn't have that ex-mil pension,would you have gone to the north sea for better pay, even though it may not be everyone's cup of tea?????? Do you think a lot of people would have gone that way if they didn't have a pension to back them up??
In police aviation we are in a market with a very limited (and reducing), income stream. Your aspirations (and the aspirations of BALPA, that we should all be twin pilot), although understandable are the sort that would cause a rapid downsize in the whole market.
I assume that if your Council shove an extra couple of quid on your council tax bill for next year to pay the Police Authority precept you won't mind then
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: North UK
Age: 70
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Military Pensions
I would agree, military pensions are a complete blind alley, they have not kept up with RPI, mine kicks in at full rate next month (yes I am that old); it seems its going to be pretty pants. If the missus didn't work, I'd be living in a cardboard box, behind Woolies, well at least until they go tits up as well.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: uk
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interesting comments and unfortunately both sides are right !
Not all ex mill pilots have a pension but i think in the early days of particularly police flying most did and consequently the salaries were lower and offset by the individual.After all the Aviation providers are in it to make a profit and therefore what they charge the customer isn't then passed on to the employee.Over the last few years what was a regular source of new pilot's, the military , has slowed and so the market has opened up for all. we have a choice to accept or not whatever the pay rate is. The only realistic way to up the salary therefore is to take out the requirement for profit and directly employ the plots.This is becomming more common in the Police world. It does however open up all kinds of cans with some reasonably sized worms in !!!!
That said because there isn't a standard rate of pay across the industry even the rates of pay for direct employ vary so a suitable salary scale for all emergency service flying doesn't exist.
As for the ex mill civvy experience arguments I don't think it really matters.Police /HEMS is what it is if you have enough general flying under your belt the individual requirements can be learnt .To say that one camp is ideally suited already is a myth perpetuated by that particular camp(whichever it may be !) The major problem that does occur is if you advertise and get no one suitable the experience level can be lowered and this should NOT happen.Our industry is driven by market forces and like all things in life you get what you pay for.
Not all ex mill pilots have a pension but i think in the early days of particularly police flying most did and consequently the salaries were lower and offset by the individual.After all the Aviation providers are in it to make a profit and therefore what they charge the customer isn't then passed on to the employee.Over the last few years what was a regular source of new pilot's, the military , has slowed and so the market has opened up for all. we have a choice to accept or not whatever the pay rate is. The only realistic way to up the salary therefore is to take out the requirement for profit and directly employ the plots.This is becomming more common in the Police world. It does however open up all kinds of cans with some reasonably sized worms in !!!!
That said because there isn't a standard rate of pay across the industry even the rates of pay for direct employ vary so a suitable salary scale for all emergency service flying doesn't exist.
As for the ex mill civvy experience arguments I don't think it really matters.Police /HEMS is what it is if you have enough general flying under your belt the individual requirements can be learnt .To say that one camp is ideally suited already is a myth perpetuated by that particular camp(whichever it may be !) The major problem that does occur is if you advertise and get no one suitable the experience level can be lowered and this should NOT happen.Our industry is driven by market forces and like all things in life you get what you pay for.
PH, you asked if I would have gone to the North Sea without a pension, possibly but unlikely. As you have said you don't want to work for low wages so you will continue to do what you are doing for now. All I/we ex Mil Pilots have done is made a decision to go for the lower wages but done it after 22 yr or more in a very demanding Mil system. For myself job satisfaction and lifestyle/outweigh the big bucks...
Every company has different pay scales, every Direct employed Air support Unit have different scales, how would you regulate that? I'd be chuffed if you could get me north Sea rates, or even Met Police..
Each to their own...
Every company has different pay scales, every Direct employed Air support Unit have different scales, how would you regulate that? I'd be chuffed if you could get me north Sea rates, or even Met Police..
Each to their own...
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: UK and MALTA
Age: 61
Posts: 1,297
Likes: 0
Received 18 Likes
on
4 Posts
I am intrigued by the heat in this debate, which I feel was the driect objective of the original post (although he seems to deny this later on). I am ex-mil with no pension, have done police and HEMS and am currently taxi-driving in the NS.
To believe that flying a HEMS helicopter to a person in need is "more demanding" than other types of flying is in my view a myth. With over 3,000 HEMs missions completed I am left with the impression that the more serious a case you are trying to reach, the less risk you should take. My Ambulance Service Operations Manager said to me at start of ops to remember that there may be one person in desperate need, but you have 3 fit live persons already on the heli. Don't create your own casualties!!! As the JAR-OPS ACJ on the subject states - the risk should be proporational to the needs of the task. If someone is in the process of dying, maybe not a good idea to try and join them.
This impression has followed me to the NS where I daily move about 70 odd people to and from their places of work. To have 19 faces looking forward during the latter stages of a night ARA in marginal conditions, landing in the turbulent sector with a new P2, in my view is far more demanding than any other type of flying I have ever done including HEMs (And my HEMS unit was the only UK unit with CAA authorisation to conduct Primary HEMS tasks at night into and out of un-recced HLS. The heli having no stab and basic VFR kit - not allowed under todays rules).
As far as the issue of money is concerned it is a plain simple fact that in modern business or administrations, nobody will give you anything unless you are prepared to fight for it.
Although on the NS we are supporting a massive industry, that is not the reason we are well paid. Our current payscales are the result of some pretty determined industrial actions carried out in the last 6 years by people who felt the only way to improve our lot is to threaten the withdrawal of our services. Such actions are divisive, dangerous and need to be thought through before being implemented, supported of course, by the BALPA network. To suggest that individual HEMs and Police units could attempt this folly.
Ex-mil guys (me being one) have a huge advantage on our civvy counterparts. Most of the flying necessary for qualifications and licences has been paid for by the tax-payer. At the moment the average young civvy entering the NS brings with them debts almost exceeding £100K, spent in the pursuit of their licences.
As long as pilots are willing to profer their services for the wages on offer there will be no imporvement. It is a free market economy. This applies equally to ex-mil and civvies alike.
I really enjoyed my time working for the Police and Ambulance services, but for me, the heart of our profession and the ability to generate at least some wealth is in the offshore sector of our industry.
If you want fun, boys-own type flying, stick with HEMs and Police. I hear these days that the average police pilot is lucky to get one vehicle pursuit a year. My first shift at EGNT, at the height of the twokking craze, in one night we had 14 pursuits. I went home dizzy!!
To believe that flying a HEMS helicopter to a person in need is "more demanding" than other types of flying is in my view a myth. With over 3,000 HEMs missions completed I am left with the impression that the more serious a case you are trying to reach, the less risk you should take. My Ambulance Service Operations Manager said to me at start of ops to remember that there may be one person in desperate need, but you have 3 fit live persons already on the heli. Don't create your own casualties!!! As the JAR-OPS ACJ on the subject states - the risk should be proporational to the needs of the task. If someone is in the process of dying, maybe not a good idea to try and join them.
This impression has followed me to the NS where I daily move about 70 odd people to and from their places of work. To have 19 faces looking forward during the latter stages of a night ARA in marginal conditions, landing in the turbulent sector with a new P2, in my view is far more demanding than any other type of flying I have ever done including HEMs (And my HEMS unit was the only UK unit with CAA authorisation to conduct Primary HEMS tasks at night into and out of un-recced HLS. The heli having no stab and basic VFR kit - not allowed under todays rules).
As far as the issue of money is concerned it is a plain simple fact that in modern business or administrations, nobody will give you anything unless you are prepared to fight for it.
Although on the NS we are supporting a massive industry, that is not the reason we are well paid. Our current payscales are the result of some pretty determined industrial actions carried out in the last 6 years by people who felt the only way to improve our lot is to threaten the withdrawal of our services. Such actions are divisive, dangerous and need to be thought through before being implemented, supported of course, by the BALPA network. To suggest that individual HEMs and Police units could attempt this folly.
Ex-mil guys (me being one) have a huge advantage on our civvy counterparts. Most of the flying necessary for qualifications and licences has been paid for by the tax-payer. At the moment the average young civvy entering the NS brings with them debts almost exceeding £100K, spent in the pursuit of their licences.
As long as pilots are willing to profer their services for the wages on offer there will be no imporvement. It is a free market economy. This applies equally to ex-mil and civvies alike.
I really enjoyed my time working for the Police and Ambulance services, but for me, the heart of our profession and the ability to generate at least some wealth is in the offshore sector of our industry.
If you want fun, boys-own type flying, stick with HEMs and Police. I hear these days that the average police pilot is lucky to get one vehicle pursuit a year. My first shift at EGNT, at the height of the twokking craze, in one night we had 14 pursuits. I went home dizzy!!
the latter stages of a night ARA in marginal conditions, landing in the turbulent sector with a new P2, in my view is far more demanding than any other type of flying I have ever done including HEMs
Regards
Aser
