New format UK TAFs
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New format UK TAFs
New format TAFs came into use today. Apart from the changes to times of issue and length of forecast period, another major change is the inclusion of date in the time groups.
E.g. "TEMPO 2203 ......." referring to 2200z tonight until 0300z tomorrow morning now becomes "TEMPO 0522/0603 ......"
To me, this seems unneccessary and makes the TAF less easy to read. I know there is a natural resistance to change, and maybe I will just get used to it, but this seems like change for change's sake. I suspect it might be driven by product liability issues (i.e. to prevent someone claiming they were mislead by an official met product).
E.g. "TEMPO 2203 ......." referring to 2200z tonight until 0300z tomorrow morning now becomes "TEMPO 0522/0603 ......"
To me, this seems unneccessary and makes the TAF less easy to read. I know there is a natural resistance to change, and maybe I will just get used to it, but this seems like change for change's sake. I suspect it might be driven by product liability issues (i.e. to prevent someone claiming they were mislead by an official met product).
Last edited by farsouth; 5th Nov 2008 at 12:02. Reason: spelling mistake!!
Well, it certainly hasn't made them any more accurate !!! I think about 10 aircraft overshot from Aberdeen yesterday, enough that I gather both Dundee and Edinburgh refused to take any more !!!
How on earth you write a 24 hour forecast for the North East of Scotland in Autumn is beyond me. Well, they'll be some hail, sun, perhaps a little snow, rain, sun again, bit of fog perhaps ..........
How on earth you write a 24 hour forecast for the North East of Scotland in Autumn is beyond me. Well, they'll be some hail, sun, perhaps a little snow, rain, sun again, bit of fog perhaps ..........
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Lets choose one of the worst days in Scotland to roll out a new TAF. Oh well the long haul drivers will be happy, so stuff the short haul stuck wings and the heli's. THANKS Met office for a "INTERESTING" morning, no REALLY thank you from the bottom of my A@SE.
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It's to make the 36 hour TAF time period clear, e.g. EGLL 051424Z 0512/0618
If it just read 1218 then we'd be forgiven for thinking it was a 6 hour period.
TEMPOS don't really need it I suppose, but it makes things clearer...
I think it works quite well, and no I don't work for the Met Office!
If it just read 1218 then we'd be forgiven for thinking it was a 6 hour period.
TEMPOS don't really need it I suppose, but it makes things clearer...
I think it works quite well, and no I don't work for the Met Office!
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UK Met Office did not introduce the new format, nor did they decide upon the date of introduction. New format was 'imposed' by ICAO. Known about for at least 2 years, with CAA sending out circulars etc. Met O Website itself posted notice of the changes (and date of change) months ago. Agree numbers and slashes makes for harder reading though.
BigglesButlter, ironic if they really planned months ago just to p*** everyone off by introducing a change on a bad flying day! I think you are right though that it is the Airlines driving the changes...
Cheers,
BigglesButlter, ironic if they really planned months ago just to p*** everyone off by introducing a change on a bad flying day! I think you are right though that it is the Airlines driving the changes...
Cheers,
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One thing I missed that was the real kicker was the met office reporting of the tafs froze (server probs of some form), and we had to go via other websites and fax's from the met office to get the correct information. It just didn't help with a change in format on a horrible day, but got sorted eventually.
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Not just the UK is affected Gentlemen.
We had an interesting time here on the other side as well.
All thanks to ICAO then.
Was nice to see G-REDL though. I hope the chaps got their hotel rooms in the end.
Cheers
We had an interesting time here on the other side as well.
All thanks to ICAO then.
Was nice to see G-REDL though. I hope the chaps got their hotel rooms in the end.
Cheers
Yep, very interesting today, but good practice of GA's at ZV today. I heard the Bond chaps have a hard time yesterday going in and out to the Lomand, or trying I should say... 2 nights away, with an immersion suit and a pair of pants, lucky them!
New TAF's
Good Morning,
Having just read through the published information on this matter I think I have no objections to the new format as I am sure it will become second nature very shortly. In fact it will probably force me to look a little more carefully instead of just skimming over the tafs which is not a bad thing.
The only point of concern I have is the update period. On my local airfield the tafs will change from 9 and 24h tafs to 24h tafs only. This means the update period will change from 3h to 6h if I am not mistaken. This might have some implications and will make 'just waiting for the new tafs to come out' a rather long affair. Up till now changes for the worse were usually put out as amended tafs pretty soon, changes for the better were normally put off until the next issue cycle (or so it seems in my part of the world - Scotland). I would hope that this will not be the case with the new procedures.
Bottom line for me is that as long as the issued Metoffice tafs are monitored for changes at the same intervals as they are now and the forecasters will make amendments more often (better or worse) then we should see no difference in the information.
Does anyone know how these changes are implemented locally on Airfields on the ATC/Metoffice side of things?
Woolf
Having just read through the published information on this matter I think I have no objections to the new format as I am sure it will become second nature very shortly. In fact it will probably force me to look a little more carefully instead of just skimming over the tafs which is not a bad thing.
The only point of concern I have is the update period. On my local airfield the tafs will change from 9 and 24h tafs to 24h tafs only. This means the update period will change from 3h to 6h if I am not mistaken. This might have some implications and will make 'just waiting for the new tafs to come out' a rather long affair. Up till now changes for the worse were usually put out as amended tafs pretty soon, changes for the better were normally put off until the next issue cycle (or so it seems in my part of the world - Scotland). I would hope that this will not be the case with the new procedures.
Bottom line for me is that as long as the issued Metoffice tafs are monitored for changes at the same intervals as they are now and the forecasters will make amendments more often (better or worse) then we should see no difference in the information.
Does anyone know how these changes are implemented locally on Airfields on the ATC/Metoffice side of things?
Woolf
Watching it for the last couple of days, it seemed that the Aberdeen TAF was permanently red, suggesting that it was being continually amended !! Creating a lot of work for the Met man whilst at the same time making it pretty difficult to know if you actually had the 'latest weather'.
Certainly the last couple of days are probably the worst case, so I'm willing to see how it pans out in the long term. It unfortunately makes for a very long broadcast when you ask Ops to pass the latest Aberdeen, Edinburgh and Glasgow TAFs over the radio. Inverness and Dundee still seem to be allowed to produce a 9hr TAF - Can't we as helicopter companies just pay a bit extra to have it brought back ?? I heard this new format was coming but never really heard why. I'm not even sure who would benefit from a 24 hr TAF ? 95% of all flights into ABZ, EDN & GLA would have departed within the past 5 or 6 hours.
Certainly the last couple of days are probably the worst case, so I'm willing to see how it pans out in the long term. It unfortunately makes for a very long broadcast when you ask Ops to pass the latest Aberdeen, Edinburgh and Glasgow TAFs over the radio. Inverness and Dundee still seem to be allowed to produce a 9hr TAF - Can't we as helicopter companies just pay a bit extra to have it brought back ?? I heard this new format was coming but never really heard why. I'm not even sure who would benefit from a 24 hr TAF ? 95% of all flights into ABZ, EDN & GLA would have departed within the past 5 or 6 hours.
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I must say I really miss the short TAFs.
I do feel they give more focused information for the period which will affect a coming flight, rather than what feels like a general 24 hour over-view, more useful for longer term planning.
I do feel they give more focused information for the period which will affect a coming flight, rather than what feels like a general 24 hour over-view, more useful for longer term planning.
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New TAF's
Is there anyone out there in the rotary world that finds the new super TAF's of any use? Because of the time periods that they are trying to cover they appear to be very broadbrush and contain an amazing amount of PROB40 (when compared with the old 9hr TAF). This means that you have to decide whether to go flying when there is a less than 50% chance of something happening but knowing that if you do go and get caught out by the weather everyone from SRG down will be pointing the finger and tutting about you ignoring the warnings given in the TAF. Yes there is the Low Altitude Briefing Chart but when you are relying on accurate predictions/info as the airfield in question is your diversion or destination there would appear to be a lot of guesswork going on. Anyone got any idea why they were introduced in the first place?
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dont look too deeply at the TAF any more, tend to pay more attention to forcast and observed vis and radar pics and actuals. the TAF is too vague and not having a pre determind time of publication means that there is every chance of it changing as you "walk out the door"!!
Bring back the old 9 Hr TAF's
T4
Bring back the old 9 Hr TAF's
T4
Totally agree way to vague with all bases covered "PROB40 TEMPO FZFG PROB40 TEMPO CAVOK PROB40 Tempo 27015G25KTS"
We Now refer to them as TARG rather than TAF. RG = Random Guess
We Now refer to them as TARG rather than TAF. RG = Random Guess
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I agree with the previous posters. You might as well look at the charts and write your own TAF now. Can we get this feedback to the Met Office in the hope we could persuade them to bring back 9 hr TAFs? 
BC
BC
Met office page with the changes detailed is Met Office: Changes to TAF format relating to migration to 30 hour TAF periods
ICAO Annex 3 is here http://dcaa.slv.dk:8000/icaodocs/Ann...%20Navigation/
Also the AIP has a met entry http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/cu...GEN_3_5_en.pdf
search the last one for "30 hour" it is there with a sidebar indicating change.
GS
ICAO Annex 3 is here http://dcaa.slv.dk:8000/icaodocs/Ann...%20Navigation/
Also the AIP has a met entry http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/cu...GEN_3_5_en.pdf
search the last one for "30 hour" it is there with a sidebar indicating change.
GS
Last edited by VeeAny; 17th Mar 2009 at 08:03. Reason: Added AIP ref