Suspected heli crash, Gloucestershire (Nov 2008)
It's all very well being armchair experts, but come on, not speculating on this one, how many accidents have we seen in recent years where a heli has flown into the ground, killing all onboard, due to combinations of inexperience, weather, pressonitis or other.
Having attended the Safety evening last week at Leeds, and looking at the rather sobering pictures of one of Robinsons finest smeared across the landscape due weather related crash. It's really upsetting hearing of more crashes so soon after, no matter the cause. In a perfect world there would be no crashes. In a nearly perfect world, maybe more people would question whether it was sensible to fly, for whatever reason, be it wx issues or pressures.
Having attended the Safety evening last week at Leeds, and looking at the rather sobering pictures of one of Robinsons finest smeared across the landscape due weather related crash. It's really upsetting hearing of more crashes so soon after, no matter the cause. In a perfect world there would be no crashes. In a nearly perfect world, maybe more people would question whether it was sensible to fly, for whatever reason, be it wx issues or pressures.
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PPLs and accidents
Crab - not sure it's fair to imply that accidents are limited to PPLs and Private Helicopters.
Flying carries a risk, as does everything else we do, and neither PPLs nor CPLs are immune from this.
For my part, I'd like to see it be far more acceptable to take a safety pilot with you on trips, whoever you are and whereever you go.
How many of you CPL types would volunteer your time to sit, FOC, next to a PPL when he is flying his helicopter?
If there's enough interest, I'll get it sorted.
Big Ls.
Flying carries a risk, as does everything else we do, and neither PPLs nor CPLs are immune from this.
For my part, I'd like to see it be far more acceptable to take a safety pilot with you on trips, whoever you are and whereever you go.
How many of you CPL types would volunteer your time to sit, FOC, next to a PPL when he is flying his helicopter?
If there's enough interest, I'll get it sorted.
Big Ls.
Biggles99
Dont mind donating some of my time for free, but please bear in mind a lot of us are self employed. Putting a safety pilot in is like buying insurance, expensive when nothing goes wrong and awfully cheap when something does !
Dont mind donating some of my time for free, but please bear in mind a lot of us are self employed. Putting a safety pilot in is like buying insurance, expensive when nothing goes wrong and awfully cheap when something does !
Biggles
The fly with a friend thing is something we are working on as part of the helicopter safety initiative, it is however a bit more complicated than it initally sounds.
It got discussed a lot on Thursday last at Leeds. I'll add something to the Informal heli nights thread soon rather than discussing it here or feel free to PM me.
If they do ever see this thread I offer my condolences to the families of the people killed in the Gazelle.
Gary
The fly with a friend thing is something we are working on as part of the helicopter safety initiative, it is however a bit more complicated than it initally sounds.
It got discussed a lot on Thursday last at Leeds. I'll add something to the Informal heli nights thread soon rather than discussing it here or feel free to PM me.
If they do ever see this thread I offer my condolences to the families of the people killed in the Gazelle.
Gary
Last edited by VeeAny; 2nd Nov 2008 at 17:37. Reason: Added Condolence and Clarified
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wg13 dummy,
Loss of life is always a tragedy and I sincerely feel for the families of all concerned.
Since I posted there have been several eyewitness reports quoted in the press supporting a CFIT mechanism for the accident.
In an anonymous forum it is imperative that we preserve the right to express opinion in an inoffensive way in order to prevent further tragedy.
I do not believe I acted offensively.
SB
Loss of life is always a tragedy and I sincerely feel for the families of all concerned.
Since I posted there have been several eyewitness reports quoted in the press supporting a CFIT mechanism for the accident.
In an anonymous forum it is imperative that we preserve the right to express opinion in an inoffensive way in order to prevent further tragedy.
I do not believe I acted offensively.
SB
I think 2 pilots , especially if they dont know each other well and each others abilities is more dangerous than 1 . I once went with somebody as a safety pilot many years ago and was not really certain of their skill level .....with the added confidence of having a cpl and cfi ( albeit low hrs )next to them , they tried for an approach into a site that they would not have done alone . Once they were in a rapid descent with the low rotor horn going and the t/r beginning to lose effect they then handed control over to me 
IF it had been a paid job i would have been more ascertive and intervened earlier but as a passenger in their helicopter i felt i had to wait . Never again... also not sure if you can be pic in wrong seat if you are not a cfi . Also taking control when you are in an unusual attitude is hard enough when you are on the side you are used to but more difficult from the co pilot side . Pilots have to take responsibility for themselves and if they are not competent solo they should go back into training or be failed simple as that . If you are talking about helping them fly in bad weather then you should be pic and demonstrate the safe way of going through the bad weather ie which side of high ground to fly on , exit routes etc and the way and right time to turn around or land . I just know somebody is going to say you shouldnt be flying in bad weather but the learning curve is what is bad but doable and what is a NO . This should be part of the training but sadly we are fixated with practicing autos etc ( how many engine failures are there compared to cfit ???? and are missing the real point . Until we target this lack of training i cant see any reason for the stats to change . It will however take somebody far more experienced and respected than me to make that happen .
IF it had been a paid job i would have been more ascertive and intervened earlier but as a passenger in their helicopter i felt i had to wait . Never again... also not sure if you can be pic in wrong seat if you are not a cfi . Also taking control when you are in an unusual attitude is hard enough when you are on the side you are used to but more difficult from the co pilot side . Pilots have to take responsibility for themselves and if they are not competent solo they should go back into training or be failed simple as that . If you are talking about helping them fly in bad weather then you should be pic and demonstrate the safe way of going through the bad weather ie which side of high ground to fly on , exit routes etc and the way and right time to turn around or land . I just know somebody is going to say you shouldnt be flying in bad weather but the learning curve is what is bad but doable and what is a NO . This should be part of the training but sadly we are fixated with practicing autos etc ( how many engine failures are there compared to cfit ???? and are missing the real point . Until we target this lack of training i cant see any reason for the stats to change . It will however take somebody far more experienced and respected than me to make that happen .
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I'm with NigelH on this..
Being accompanied by a safety-pilot appears to have much to commend it.. but there are many ifs and buts. To mention just one case (of many), read the AAIB report into the fatal Cherokee at Blackpool last year. A real tragedy.
I do concede however that, properly thought out, a formal/legal safety-pilot policy could well be a very good thing. Rgds bm
I do concede however that, properly thought out, a formal/legal safety-pilot policy could well be a very good thing. Rgds bm
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I have held a ppl for 10 years and during that time i have always taken a safety pilot. there are two good reason for me appart from the obvious safety one. my insurance was greatly reduced by stating that i would be accompanied by a pilot with a minimun 1000hrs cpl, and i have made alot of great friends. When i think of it i know it is money well spent even in these harder times.
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Safety Pilot/Observer
Also applies to the AAC.
I lost a great friend in a Scout accident in Northern Ireland in the 70's.
Flying on his own - low level (had to) - middle of the night (returning from ops) - flew into a hill side.
Second Pilot/Observer ?? Not deemed necessary !!
I had been his "second seat" many times over a three year posting in Germany and it was always better to have four eyes rather than two - Luftwaffe Starfighters being favourite and sudden "claggy" weather coming a close second !!
I lost a great friend in a Scout accident in Northern Ireland in the 70's.
Flying on his own - low level (had to) - middle of the night (returning from ops) - flew into a hill side.
Second Pilot/Observer ?? Not deemed necessary !!
I had been his "second seat" many times over a three year posting in Germany and it was always better to have four eyes rather than two - Luftwaffe Starfighters being favourite and sudden "claggy" weather coming a close second !!
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A very sad event and a sad loss ....
The thread is now on a different tack and a new one may need to be started .. However, a safety pilot on Private flights is not the answer here. You can never have to much information on weather on departure and on your arrival destination .... Ultimately its up to P1
Be safe
The thread is now on a different tack and a new one may need to be started .. However, a safety pilot on Private flights is not the answer here. You can never have to much information on weather on departure and on your arrival destination .... Ultimately its up to P1
Be safe
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Agree with that DingDong
I first met “Prudence” in the crew room of 651 Squadron in Verden just before Christmas 1969.
She was dressed in black stockings, suspender belt, six inch stilettos and very little else.
As a flight safety poster she conveyed a simple message
“Fly with Prudence”
I first met “Prudence” in the crew room of 651 Squadron in Verden just before Christmas 1969.
She was dressed in black stockings, suspender belt, six inch stilettos and very little else.
As a flight safety poster she conveyed a simple message
“Fly with Prudence”
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Hi Bronx,
Mechanical failure and pilot incapacitation have not been ruled out. There is an ongoing AAIB investigation into this tragic accident which when published will supercede any speculation thus far.
SB
Mechanical failure and pilot incapacitation have not been ruled out. There is an ongoing AAIB investigation into this tragic accident which when published will supercede any speculation thus far.
SB
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I agree with others this has now taken a different tack. (Partly my fault) For whatever reason there has been a tragic accident and my condolences goes to the family of the deceased.
R.I.P
R.I.P
I would say that by civilian standards the aircraft are far from "knackered". The aircraft in question had about 9800 hours (from G-INFO). Some of the ex mil aircraft have been sold off with as little as 2500 hours a great waste of tax payers money. Compare this with the Pumas and S61 operating public transport on the north sea with over 30,000 hours on the clock.
The Gazelle is interesting in that the CAA deemed it inelligible for a C of A when previous ex military light helicopters have been accepted. Bell 47(Sioux), Hiller 12E, Allouette 2.
Amongst other things I believe the engine variant is not civil certified.
Many people believe that the aircraft were restricted to prevent them having an effect on the sales of new civil helicopters. A great shame if true as this is a fine aircraft.
The Gazelle is interesting in that the CAA deemed it inelligible for a C of A when previous ex military light helicopters have been accepted. Bell 47(Sioux), Hiller 12E, Allouette 2.
Amongst other things I believe the engine variant is not civil certified.
Many people believe that the aircraft were restricted to prevent them having an effect on the sales of new civil helicopters. A great shame if true as this is a fine aircraft.
Last edited by ericferret; 3rd Nov 2008 at 16:32.
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As usual there will be speculation about the actual cause, which may or may not ever be known, and which will continue at least until the AAIB report is published.
Getting back on topic :
The name of the pilot has been officially released, and as suggested earlier is one of the co-owners, Roderick ( Rick ) Paskey.
My personal condolences to his family and those of his passengers, who not only have to deal with their tragic losses, but also with the rumour and speculation that is almost inevitable these days, both within forums such as these, and from the media.
I was not privileged to have known Rick personally, other than through a close family friend, and through having seen the striking colour scheme flying overhead a few times.
I have passed on the the messages of sympathy posted here to Rick's wife Carol, who will let me have details of funeral arrangements when they are known. They will then be posted here.
Meanwhile, Rest in Peace.
Coconutty
Getting back on topic :
The name of the pilot has been officially released, and as suggested earlier is one of the co-owners, Roderick ( Rick ) Paskey.
My personal condolences to his family and those of his passengers, who not only have to deal with their tragic losses, but also with the rumour and speculation that is almost inevitable these days, both within forums such as these, and from the media.
I was not privileged to have known Rick personally, other than through a close family friend, and through having seen the striking colour scheme flying overhead a few times.
I have passed on the the messages of sympathy posted here to Rick's wife Carol, who will let me have details of funeral arrangements when they are known. They will then be posted here.
Meanwhile, Rest in Peace.
Coconutty
Last edited by Senior Pilot; 3rd Nov 2008 at 17:55.
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Rick Paskey
I have known Rick personally for 17 years and have enjoyed flying with him on several occasions. Having flown in a number of Royal Navy helo's I have to say that Rick always filled me with admiration and confidence. His skill and attention to safety was first class in every way.
As usual after such incidents there will be speculation from many quarters, some helpful and others not so helpful. Due to the extensive damage sustained following the impact and subsequent prolonged fire on board, it might be that we shall never know the real cause for the incident. But what ever the reason, be it CFIT, instrument or mechanical failure, the fact remains that a tragic accident occured which has devastated the lives of three families.
RIP
As usual after such incidents there will be speculation from many quarters, some helpful and others not so helpful. Due to the extensive damage sustained following the impact and subsequent prolonged fire on board, it might be that we shall never know the real cause for the incident. But what ever the reason, be it CFIT, instrument or mechanical failure, the fact remains that a tragic accident occured which has devastated the lives of three families.
RIP
Last edited by CharlieRN; 14th Nov 2008 at 23:52.