When do you start logging time?
Well yesterday, I shut a 300 down got out and walked away, due to a bit of wind I actually managed to get the kettle on and nearly make a cup of tea before the rotors had stopped. Not that I need anymore hours but I could log the hours while drinking tea in the crewroom !!!
Chief Bottle Washer
R44 flight time discussion, in this thread 
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VA
Have to agree with you here.Engine start to engine stop which is effectively rotors running to rotors stopped on most helies.
If them blades are turning youre in command of an aircraft.If some thing happens you,re the commander (PIC time in log book))
Have to agree with you here.Engine start to engine stop which is effectively rotors running to rotors stopped on most helies.
If them blades are turning youre in command of an aircraft.If some thing happens you,re the commander (PIC time in log book))
Here in Australia it's Rotors engaged for the purpose of flight, so engine on to engine off if you are going flying. Can't log ground running and quite right too. When I say ground running I mean where you don't intend flying. I.E track and balance on the ground. Fan balance if a robbie.
Ringer
Ringer
Well, you're both wrong, I'm afraid. Hooloovoo was even kind enough to post what the actual UK regulations are in his original opening post.
(Edited to add: Sorry Heliringer. You posted just before I had a chance to hit 'Submit'. My post was aimed at va and P1DRIVER.)
(Edited to add: Sorry Heliringer. You posted just before I had a chance to hit 'Submit'. My post was aimed at va and P1DRIVER.)
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It is all very simple, really- you log what is being paid for.
If you are paying for R-22 time form the datcon, then that is what you log.
If your customer is paying for collective time, then that is what you log.
How simple! As an added plus- it goes against all logic and will surely upset the regulatory nazi's!!
If you are paying for R-22 time form the datcon, then that is what you log.
If your customer is paying for collective time, then that is what you log.
How simple! As an added plus- it goes against all logic and will surely upset the regulatory nazi's!!
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Hmm, should somebody tell the CAA then that a large number of pilots might be over-estimating their flight time for the purposes of certification of JAA licences? Or, hang on, if it's a JAA licence, it falls under JAR FCL rule and thus warrants the logging from rotor start to stop; despite the fact that UK rules dictate logging only from movement.
Interesting.
Interesting.
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logging time
Jeeez... l was just told by a D.E. here in Orlando, that the FAA want us only to log the time from skips up to skids down and not the whole hobbs time..........
So who is in control when doing all the start and checks, then.........
He also said that that applies to fixed wing as well ........
So who is in control when doing all the start and checks, then.........
He also said that that applies to fixed wing as well ........
FAR Part 1 Definitions
"Flight time" means:
(1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing; or
(2) For a glider without self-launch capability, pilot time that commences when the glider is towed for the purpose of flight and ends when the glider comes to rest after landing.
(1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing; or
(2) For a glider without self-launch capability, pilot time that commences when the glider is towed for the purpose of flight and ends when the glider comes to rest after landing.
Legal opinion on the matter:
“U.S. Department of Transportation
Federal Aviation Administration
APR 27 2007
(address omitted)
Dear Mr. (omitted),
This responds to your letter dated December 13, 2006, in which you ask three questions concerning the logging of flight time in a helicopter. The answers all flow from the definition of "flight time" found in section 1.1 of Title l4 Code of Federal Regulations.
Your three questions are:
1. May a pilot log as "flight time" to qualify for a certificate or rating under 14 CFR Part 61, or for purposes of qualifying under 14 CFR 135.243(b)(2), that time accrued in a helicopter when the aircraft is sitting on the ground with the engine running and rotor blades turning, but the aircraft has not moved from its parking place and flight has not yet commenced?
2. May a pilot log as "flight time" to qualify for a certificate or rating under 14 CFR Part 61, or for purposes of qualifying under 14 CFR 135.243(b)(2), that time accrued in a helicopter after the end of a flight prior to shut down when the helicopter has set down and come to a rest at its parking place, flight has ceased, but the engine is still running and rotor blades are still turning?
3. If a helicopter is equipped with a "time in service" meter that is actuated only by the collective pitch control, may a pilot add a couple of tenths of an hour of "flight time" to their log book in excess of the aircraft "time in service" meter reading, to account for the time that the aircraft is starting and running up at the beginning of the training period prior to lift off, and that time the engine is idling and cooling down after the last landing, prior to the engine being shut off?
The regulations in pertinent part define "flight time" as "
ilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing." 14 C.F.R. § 1.1. As with fixed-wing aircraft, flight time in a helicopter commences the moment that it moves under its own power away from its parking place for the purpose of flight- whether departure is commenced by lifting off or taxiing. (Helicopters can be equipped with different types of landing gear; and those equipped with wheels or pontoons have the option of a vertical lift-off or taxiing before lift-off.) Flight time ends for any helicopter operation when the helicopter comes to rest after landing.
It follows from the plain words of the regulation that the circumstances you described could not be logged as flight time. The answer to all three questions is that flight time may not be logged.
This response was prepared by Viola Pando, Attorney in the Regulations Division of the Chief Counsel and has been coordinated with General Aviation Division of Flight Standards Service. If you have additional questions regarding this matter, please contact us at your convenience at (202) 267-3073.
Sincerely,
Rebecca MacPherson
Assistant Chief Counsel Regulations Division”
“U.S. Department of Transportation
Federal Aviation Administration
APR 27 2007
(address omitted)
Dear Mr. (omitted),
This responds to your letter dated December 13, 2006, in which you ask three questions concerning the logging of flight time in a helicopter. The answers all flow from the definition of "flight time" found in section 1.1 of Title l4 Code of Federal Regulations.
Your three questions are:
1. May a pilot log as "flight time" to qualify for a certificate or rating under 14 CFR Part 61, or for purposes of qualifying under 14 CFR 135.243(b)(2), that time accrued in a helicopter when the aircraft is sitting on the ground with the engine running and rotor blades turning, but the aircraft has not moved from its parking place and flight has not yet commenced?
2. May a pilot log as "flight time" to qualify for a certificate or rating under 14 CFR Part 61, or for purposes of qualifying under 14 CFR 135.243(b)(2), that time accrued in a helicopter after the end of a flight prior to shut down when the helicopter has set down and come to a rest at its parking place, flight has ceased, but the engine is still running and rotor blades are still turning?
3. If a helicopter is equipped with a "time in service" meter that is actuated only by the collective pitch control, may a pilot add a couple of tenths of an hour of "flight time" to their log book in excess of the aircraft "time in service" meter reading, to account for the time that the aircraft is starting and running up at the beginning of the training period prior to lift off, and that time the engine is idling and cooling down after the last landing, prior to the engine being shut off?
The regulations in pertinent part define "flight time" as "
ilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing." 14 C.F.R. § 1.1. As with fixed-wing aircraft, flight time in a helicopter commences the moment that it moves under its own power away from its parking place for the purpose of flight- whether departure is commenced by lifting off or taxiing. (Helicopters can be equipped with different types of landing gear; and those equipped with wheels or pontoons have the option of a vertical lift-off or taxiing before lift-off.) Flight time ends for any helicopter operation when the helicopter comes to rest after landing.
It follows from the plain words of the regulation that the circumstances you described could not be logged as flight time. The answer to all three questions is that flight time may not be logged.
This response was prepared by Viola Pando, Attorney in the Regulations Division of the Chief Counsel and has been coordinated with General Aviation Division of Flight Standards Service. If you have additional questions regarding this matter, please contact us at your convenience at (202) 267-3073.
Sincerely,
Rebecca MacPherson
Assistant Chief Counsel Regulations Division”
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I know what the rules say and thats how i log my time, but have had this conversation before. Has anyone ever read an accident report where the helicopter came to some sort of grief while running on the ground, such as someone walking into the tail rotor.(heaven forbid) The report usally refers to the PIC at some stage. The PIC still takes the rap for the accident (whatever the situation may be) but is not logging the flight time, but still has full responsibility for the A/C
And then if you fly an R22 you log the hr meter hrs run off the engine oil pressure, so are logging ground running time as well.
We all know how long it takes some of our fixed wing friends to taxi, run up hold etc, and they can log the lot.
Rules are rules i surpose, but like someone once told me they are for the protection of fools and the guidence of wise men
And then if you fly an R22 you log the hr meter hrs run off the engine oil pressure, so are logging ground running time as well.
We all know how long it takes some of our fixed wing friends to taxi, run up hold etc, and they can log the lot.
Rules are rules i surpose, but like someone once told me they are for the protection of fools and the guidence of wise men
No one ever accused the Rulers of the Air of being fair or logical.
If something this minor gets yer knicks in a knot.....have you ever got a tough life coming if you take up helicopter flying as a profession!
If something this minor gets yer knicks in a knot.....have you ever got a tough life coming if you take up helicopter flying as a profession!
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Hey SAS....
When you are a loooooow time pilot, every tenth of an hour is important, or dont you remember that far back........
Good point fadecdegraded
300 has a hobbs and a tac meter
When you are a loooooow time pilot, every tenth of an hour is important, or dont you remember that far back........
Good point fadecdegraded
300 has a hobbs and a tac meter
Young Lad,
There is a point in life where you cease logging time while in sight of the aircraft and get to logging your days off. One day you will get around to totaling up the page totals and you will be surprised you are still around to do so.
Just never lose your love of flying helicopters because after that it just becomes a way of earning a living....meager as it is.
The day you make a "perfect" approach and landing and you don't get that warm glow is the point at which flying just became a "job".
There is a point in life where you cease logging time while in sight of the aircraft and get to logging your days off. One day you will get around to totaling up the page totals and you will be surprised you are still around to do so.
Just never lose your love of flying helicopters because after that it just becomes a way of earning a living....meager as it is.
The day you make a "perfect" approach and landing and you don't get that warm glow is the point at which flying just became a "job".
How do 'you' log Helicopter Flight time??
So I was looking through Lasors and JAR-FCL2 amendments last night, as you do, and I notice something I hadn't seen before.
Flight time:
[The total time from the moment a helicopter’s rotor blades start turning until the moment the helicopter finally comes to rest at the end of the flight, and the rotor blades are stopped.]
This would add about 5 minutes minimum to our flight time every single start, sometimes more.
I'm sure I was told previously it was the time when the aircraft first moved under it's own power for the purpose of flight, until the rotors stopped.
I know this statement still stands for fixed wing though according to JAR-FCL.
How does everyone else log helicopter flight time? First taxi to rotor stop?
Flight time:
[The total time from the moment a helicopter’s rotor blades start turning until the moment the helicopter finally comes to rest at the end of the flight, and the rotor blades are stopped.]
This would add about 5 minutes minimum to our flight time every single start, sometimes more.
I'm sure I was told previously it was the time when the aircraft first moved under it's own power for the purpose of flight, until the rotors stopped.
I know this statement still stands for fixed wing though according to JAR-FCL.
How does everyone else log helicopter flight time? First taxi to rotor stop?