Prince William to become a SAR driver
HB, said like a true royalist and proud subject!
Me on the other hand would say, Harry with his poor results should never have gained a spot at Sandbags and I don't really think any of the two would ever have been chopped from any course they ATTENDED!.
Just my opinion as a Colonial. Viva the Gothenbergs,sorry Saxon,sorry Windsor, what are they called this century?
Me on the other hand would say, Harry with his poor results should never have gained a spot at Sandbags and I don't really think any of the two would ever have been chopped from any course they ATTENDED!.
Just my opinion as a Colonial. Viva the Gothenbergs,sorry Saxon,sorry Windsor, what are they called this century?
Last edited by Heliringer; 19th Sep 2010 at 13:52.
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I am not a great Royalist, and I have nothing against them either, nor am I a subject any more, but I know the training system they have been through, and I know they did it and passed on their own merit. By all accounts from some of the instructors who flew with them, they both actually did quite well.
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Heliringer,
Seems we are not the only ones. When was the last time Australians voted for a Republic?
I have been fortunate enough to meet many of the Royals and they are on the whole - considering the fact that they have little choice in how they live their lives - very good people. Which is more than I can say for most politicians and why I am very happy that our Head of State is Her Majesty the Queen and not Gordon Brown - or Julia Gillard.
P.S I didn't realise that you were on board the Royal Flight 146 on Islay that day. Please tell us what happened?
Seems we are not the only ones. When was the last time Australians voted for a Republic?
I have been fortunate enough to meet many of the Royals and they are on the whole - considering the fact that they have little choice in how they live their lives - very good people. Which is more than I can say for most politicians and why I am very happy that our Head of State is Her Majesty the Queen and not Gordon Brown - or Julia Gillard.
P.S I didn't realise that you were on board the Royal Flight 146 on Islay that day. Please tell us what happened?
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HR
Whatever your personal views of monarchy and the individuals who are our Royal family, it is not a bad thing that many of us still remain loyal to our Head of State and Commander in Chief, and her potential successors. Its our system...it works, and has proven better in many ways than the so called democratic process that has replaced it (as far as head of state is concerned anyway) in many countries ..not least that former colony across the Atlantic!
Your comments re Harry's and William's abilities in flying rotary are facile and based more on prejudice than fact. Both are competent enough and rest assured they would not be unleashed if they could not succeed on their own merit. There is too much at stake to do otherwise, not least the risk to the lives they will fly with or support on operations.
Still they are damned both ways...as the demise of their uncle Edward showed some years ago when he had the courage to withdraw from Royal Marines training when he was clearly not going to succeed and was obviously motivated by other career possibilities. The UK press hounded him mercilessly for it despite it being the right thing to do. Both H and W are capable men who carry their parents' better characteristics...not least in knowing that if they felt they couldn't hack it they would soon move on.....
Welcome on board Flt lt Wales.......flying a SAR Sea King in the UK SRR is one of the best and most demanding jobs in aviation......I wish you well
Whatever your personal views of monarchy and the individuals who are our Royal family, it is not a bad thing that many of us still remain loyal to our Head of State and Commander in Chief, and her potential successors. Its our system...it works, and has proven better in many ways than the so called democratic process that has replaced it (as far as head of state is concerned anyway) in many countries ..not least that former colony across the Atlantic!
Your comments re Harry's and William's abilities in flying rotary are facile and based more on prejudice than fact. Both are competent enough and rest assured they would not be unleashed if they could not succeed on their own merit. There is too much at stake to do otherwise, not least the risk to the lives they will fly with or support on operations.
Still they are damned both ways...as the demise of their uncle Edward showed some years ago when he had the courage to withdraw from Royal Marines training when he was clearly not going to succeed and was obviously motivated by other career possibilities. The UK press hounded him mercilessly for it despite it being the right thing to do. Both H and W are capable men who carry their parents' better characteristics...not least in knowing that if they felt they couldn't hack it they would soon move on.....
Welcome on board Flt lt Wales.......flying a SAR Sea King in the UK SRR is one of the best and most demanding jobs in aviation......I wish you well
Last edited by Tallsar; 19th Sep 2010 at 20:01.
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Where is the difference between a mil guy being paid to train and fly and a civi, who has to re-mortgage his family house, leave his wife and kids and focus on the flying ahead?
Whether the training role is for Bristow's out to oil rigs, low level fisheries patrols, or 737, you cannot tell me that the mil is any harder - it is just different and concentrated. I have met mil chaps that don't know what a hold is and shiver when it is time to do a NDB approach when the ILS aids are u/s - civi bread and butter.
And my hour building took me into 5 different countries. More than a SAR pilot would see or an RAF boy during training.
How long would it take to get 3000hrs experience - probably a whole career?
Get over yourselves.
Whether the training role is for Bristow's out to oil rigs, low level fisheries patrols, or 737, you cannot tell me that the mil is any harder - it is just different and concentrated. I have met mil chaps that don't know what a hold is and shiver when it is time to do a NDB approach when the ILS aids are u/s - civi bread and butter.
And my hour building took me into 5 different countries. More than a SAR pilot would see or an RAF boy during training.
How long would it take to get 3000hrs experience - probably a whole career?
Get over yourselves.
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Whether the training role is for Bristow's out to oil rigs, low level fisheries patrols, or 737, you cannot tell me that the mil is any harder - it is just different and concentrated. I have met mil chaps that don't know what a hold is and shiver when it is time to do a NDB approach when the ILS aids are u/s - civi bread and butter.
No idea what your point is as the thread is about Prince William qualifying as a UK SAR pilot.
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Well said Epiphany.
A glance at PAPI's public profile shows that he/she cannot be taken seriously. Perhaps he/she would benefit from a journey along the Road to Damascus?
A glance at PAPI's public profile shows that he/she cannot be taken seriously. Perhaps he/she would benefit from a journey along the Road to Damascus?
Hmm I guess I am missing something here.
70 hours real + 50 hours simulator and he is "qualified" to make SAR Ops as copilot????
I guess he must have more flight experience but the article make it looks like he can jump into a copilot seat in SAR Ops with such low hours.
70 hours real + 50 hours simulator and he is "qualified" to make SAR Ops as copilot????
I guess he must have more flight experience but the article make it looks like he can jump into a copilot seat in SAR Ops with such low hours.
skadi
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My comments were in response to the hints that civi flying is just a jolly about and unstructured. It maybe at PPL level but this isn’t a professional qualification. 200 hrs is a lot of flying (the basic level for CPL training) and many skills can be learnt in this time. Even NOE using NVG’s with a full crew on boad.
And I can tell you that the huge bang of lightning strike, with women and babies behind you is pretty focusing too.
I am very proud of both the Royals, and my time in the services, but my comments were generated from other parts of the thread.
And I can tell you that the huge bang of lightning strike, with women and babies behind you is pretty focusing too.
I am very proud of both the Royals, and my time in the services, but my comments were generated from other parts of the thread.
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PAPI,
That says to me someone has their priorities all wrong.
Flying in 5 different countries is harder than hovering over a moving deck at night on fuel minima....how?
So what? 3000 hours sat behind an autopilot vs 300 hours SAR - who would you want to save your wife and kids (if you still have them of course).
The helicopter world is full of all sorts of people with all sorts of background with all sorts of experience. It doesn't necessarily make one a better pilot than another. But there is one common trait that all the good pilots I have met have: Respect.
who has to re-mortgage his family house, leave his wife and kids and focus on the flying ahead?
And my hour building took me into 5 different countries. More than a SAR pilot would see or an RAF boy during training.
How long would it take to get 3000hrs experience - probably a whole career?
The helicopter world is full of all sorts of people with all sorts of background with all sorts of experience. It doesn't necessarily make one a better pilot than another. But there is one common trait that all the good pilots I have met have: Respect.
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PAPI,
no inference intended from my posts. I learnt my trade in the military and have continued it into the civilian world. I have respect for both sides, and have met equally professional and proficient pilots in both worlds, and I will always respect those sorts of people. The sort of person who takes his job seriously and understands his weaknesses as well as strengths and realises he doesn't know it all. I don't and probably never will have much time for those who continually harp on about why one is inherently better than the other. I am sick of both military pilots who claim to be better than civi, and civi pilots with a chip on their shoulder about being rejected form the military or regretting not having joined up when they had the chance, and then claiming that their training system is the same as a military one because they paid for it (Of these I genuinely have not met many). It is not - get over it. The good pilot realises this and makes up for it over time through gaining experience, and by the time he has been in the industry for a few years and has 5000hrs the differences is just personality, and then the civi pilot begins to be a more versatile creature in my experience.
I have flown with 300hr military pilots and civi pilots and I am sorry to offend, but there really is no comparison at that stage, and that is purely due to the intensity of the training. After the PPL is complete, he very often works as an "instructor" to gain hours to get to CPL, and whilst that is valuable experience, it is not the same as the highly instructed USL, NVG Low-level formation (50'), night confined areas, map reading skills, general handling, IFR (IMC), winching, deck landings etc etc that Flt Wales had been doing before getting up to 300 hrs. On top of that he had a check ride every few weeks where he could have been binned completely, and if he had not been up to the grade he would have been.
After a few thousand hours though the civi guy has also become very competent and extremely good at his job and in his environment, and generally becomes far more of a specialist, especially when it comes to procedural flying. The point is it is two different worlds, two different requirements, but both equally competent in their own sphere, and I take absolutely nothing away form the guy who has worked his nuts off to become an IFR captain flying a multi-crew machine offshore or someone who has flown several thousand hours utility single pilot - they have just done it a different way. So lets just say "well done to the two Princes" and welcome to the fold.
no inference intended from my posts. I learnt my trade in the military and have continued it into the civilian world. I have respect for both sides, and have met equally professional and proficient pilots in both worlds, and I will always respect those sorts of people. The sort of person who takes his job seriously and understands his weaknesses as well as strengths and realises he doesn't know it all. I don't and probably never will have much time for those who continually harp on about why one is inherently better than the other. I am sick of both military pilots who claim to be better than civi, and civi pilots with a chip on their shoulder about being rejected form the military or regretting not having joined up when they had the chance, and then claiming that their training system is the same as a military one because they paid for it (Of these I genuinely have not met many). It is not - get over it. The good pilot realises this and makes up for it over time through gaining experience, and by the time he has been in the industry for a few years and has 5000hrs the differences is just personality, and then the civi pilot begins to be a more versatile creature in my experience.
I have flown with 300hr military pilots and civi pilots and I am sorry to offend, but there really is no comparison at that stage, and that is purely due to the intensity of the training. After the PPL is complete, he very often works as an "instructor" to gain hours to get to CPL, and whilst that is valuable experience, it is not the same as the highly instructed USL, NVG Low-level formation (50'), night confined areas, map reading skills, general handling, IFR (IMC), winching, deck landings etc etc that Flt Wales had been doing before getting up to 300 hrs. On top of that he had a check ride every few weeks where he could have been binned completely, and if he had not been up to the grade he would have been.
After a few thousand hours though the civi guy has also become very competent and extremely good at his job and in his environment, and generally becomes far more of a specialist, especially when it comes to procedural flying. The point is it is two different worlds, two different requirements, but both equally competent in their own sphere, and I take absolutely nothing away form the guy who has worked his nuts off to become an IFR captain flying a multi-crew machine offshore or someone who has flown several thousand hours utility single pilot - they have just done it a different way. So lets just say "well done to the two Princes" and welcome to the fold.
Last edited by Horror box; 20th Sep 2010 at 06:58. Reason: spelling
Just beating the air into submission!
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As an ex mil rotary QHI of some 2000+ instuctional time, I was at SARTU when "Wills" underwent his basic SAR training. He was and is a very capable pilot, easily passing SARTU's exacting standards and whilst I can not comment on his SeaKIng SAR training, from what I have witnessed he will make an excellent SAR pilot. He also makes a good cup of tea! 
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I think we have the two most credible Royals in a long time. From what I have seen and heard the boys have done an excellent job. For any family, they have come from very difficult circumstances and despite their privilege have acquitted themselves with considerable dignity and honour. Good luck to Flt Lt Windsor on his SAR tour.
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compare to civil aviation
As this turns out to be more like a “royalty” discussion, where I as an Austrian can’t really comment I would like to get back to the apparently usual low time military training.
I have a high regard for the training military pilots get and there is surely no comparison to a civil low time trying to stack up flight time, but I’m not sure if we compare the right things. In civil flying there is no 200h SAR pilot! In no company in Europe or America pilots for EMS / SAR are having below 1500 - 2000h. Flying 2000 hours in civil aviation will put you in a lot of situations military training won’t get you in!
No matter how intense the training was, I think as a SAR pilot one should have more experience (they could get it through flying “normally” in the troops or where ever within the Army).
Anyhow it is a great chance for those two guys and I wish them all the best!
I have a high regard for the training military pilots get and there is surely no comparison to a civil low time trying to stack up flight time, but I’m not sure if we compare the right things. In civil flying there is no 200h SAR pilot! In no company in Europe or America pilots for EMS / SAR are having below 1500 - 2000h. Flying 2000 hours in civil aviation will put you in a lot of situations military training won’t get you in!
No matter how intense the training was, I think as a SAR pilot one should have more experience (they could get it through flying “normally” in the troops or where ever within the Army).
Anyhow it is a great chance for those two guys and I wish them all the best!
In no company in Europe or America pilots for EMS / SAR are having below 1500 - 2000h
Klaus - a - e: read the thread heading: "Prince William: crab's new co-pilot. It's NOT about low time SAR pilots 
Secondly - 40 years of experience and training shows that the RAF just about have it right (the way they do it) don't you think.
ALL co-pilots are low hours and operate under the close scrutiny of a very experienced Captain until it's time for them to take any responsibility for the flight. Don't think for one moment, these low time SAR pilots have any say in strategy whilst airborne - just like civvy street. They do as they are told until they get their Captaincy and then they are let loose.
They're certainly not a liability - especially as helicopters don't really need a second pilot, do they? [It's a regulatory issue].
Secondly - 40 years of experience and training shows that the RAF just about have it right (the way they do it) don't you think.
ALL co-pilots are low hours and operate under the close scrutiny of a very experienced Captain until it's time for them to take any responsibility for the flight. Don't think for one moment, these low time SAR pilots have any say in strategy whilst airborne - just like civvy street. They do as they are told until they get their Captaincy and then they are let loose.
They're certainly not a liability - especially as helicopters don't really need a second pilot, do they? [It's a regulatory issue].
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Prince William has qualified as a SAR co-pilot - not a SAR Captain. He will be sitting next to an experienced SAR Captain and will learn on the job as there is no better place.
I had 2000 military flying behind me when I started SAR training and apart from airmanship and general handling skills it did not really help. Crew co-ordination, use of automation, radar approaches to a small ship and hovering next to a small, pitching deck on a dark, stormy night were all very new to me.
I was very happy to be a co-pilot and learn from someone who knew what he was doing. Those of you commenting on SAR flying who have no experience of SAR really have no idea of what is involved.
I had 2000 military flying behind me when I started SAR training and apart from airmanship and general handling skills it did not really help. Crew co-ordination, use of automation, radar approaches to a small ship and hovering next to a small, pitching deck on a dark, stormy night were all very new to me.
I was very happy to be a co-pilot and learn from someone who knew what he was doing. Those of you commenting on SAR flying who have no experience of SAR really have no idea of what is involved.