Bell 407 vs AS-350 B2/B3
This is actually a pretty useful thread because the toss-up between 407 and B3 is a fairly common consideration among single-turbine buyers. So, once again, thank you PPRuNe!
A couple of comments made which, if anyone was able to justify with empirical comments, one would be most grateful:
CGWRA wrote in post #17: ".. the 407 is more crashworthy than the B3 .."
Is there a report anywhere on a crashworthiness test which echoes this comment?
Blender Pilot wrote in post #2: ".. the operating cost of the Eurocopter is cheaper, I would say by at least 80 dollars per hour."
Really, a B3 is USD 80 less to operate (DOC) than a 407?
Sherpa wrote in post #24 " The 407 is very fast at MSL and handles well and is great to longline, but as soon as you get some elevation and temperature she is fading away."
At what altitude (approximately) does the 407 begin to drop-off (noticeably) in its performance?
Grazie.
A couple of comments made which, if anyone was able to justify with empirical comments, one would be most grateful:
CGWRA wrote in post #17: ".. the 407 is more crashworthy than the B3 .."
Is there a report anywhere on a crashworthiness test which echoes this comment?
Blender Pilot wrote in post #2: ".. the operating cost of the Eurocopter is cheaper, I would say by at least 80 dollars per hour."
Really, a B3 is USD 80 less to operate (DOC) than a 407?
Sherpa wrote in post #24 " The 407 is very fast at MSL and handles well and is great to longline, but as soon as you get some elevation and temperature she is fading away."
At what altitude (approximately) does the 407 begin to drop-off (noticeably) in its performance?
Grazie.
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: africa
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tourism option B2 - 407
What if you had to fly 5 pax with 25kgs of luggage on a tour of the country highlighting the great scenery to your pax. You then had to pay the helicopter owner the current going rates for the option you choose?
Important factor:
Scenery
Baggage space
Hourly rate economy / fuel burn
Important factor:
Scenery
Baggage space
Hourly rate economy / fuel burn
"Our firm has a policy of purchasing 2-3 year old aircraft"
Hey HeliPilot 1 you just busted your company policy with the 2008 B2.
Hey HeliPilot 1 you just busted your company policy with the 2008 B2.
Last edited by Gemini Twin; 21st Aug 2013 at 19:44.
Across the Alps from north, south east and west the AS350 dominates the market in the single engine turbine utility helicopter.
Even deep in to Agusta land, the AS350 is still the most used.
Even deep in to Agusta land, the AS350 is still the most used.
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: foot of a mountain
Posts: 293
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No question AS350 territory. B2 will take 850kg on the hook but like 407 becomes limited when it gets a bit hotter or higher. This becomes B3 territory and the B3 lifts 1.4tons on the swing. So between B2 and B3 depends on whether you want to fire fight with 800kg limited at hot and high or 1 ton(very realistic and conservative for B3) up to very hot or high or both. Easy maintenance and extremely reliable if your mechanic knows what to look for and keep it clean due composites and teflon. Fit the seats again and she gives you the perfect visibility for pax.
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Canadas north
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Vertical freedom wrote:
"no doubt the Koala is very sexy & sleek. But ask Yourself why don't they work them hot n' high??? Simply they run out of puff. Also You are looking at almost double the operating & purchase cost. So a very expensive machine."
Dude really?
Fuel burn in a b3 according to your comment is 33 us gallon/hr? haha that's like a Longranger 2....
And the koala being 61 us gal/ hr?
Don't think so, b3 47-50, koala 50-55...
"no doubt the Koala is very sexy & sleek. But ask Yourself why don't they work them hot n' high??? Simply they run out of puff. Also You are looking at almost double the operating & purchase cost. So a very expensive machine."
Dude really?
Fuel burn in a b3 according to your comment is 33 us gallon/hr? haha that's like a Longranger 2....
And the koala being 61 us gal/ hr?
Don't think so, b3 47-50, koala 50-55...
Last edited by mlagersson; 1st Dec 2015 at 20:59. Reason: no reply
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: the great white north
Posts: 299
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
my previous employer used to be a strictly Bell product company and had 4 407's in the fleet. once they assumed us (the VFR division of another company with 9 B2's) it took them only two years to acquire 2 new B3e's and all of the 407's are for sale or going back to the lessor's. the reason: they are far more expensive to operate than B2/3's and far less dependable.
fuel burn in the B3e (IIRC) is about 170-180L. better than i would have expected and much better than a 407
fuel burn in the B3e (IIRC) is about 170-180L. better than i would have expected and much better than a 407
Last edited by Fun Police; 1st Dec 2015 at 23:19.
Join Date: May 2010
Location: New Zealand
Age: 52
Posts: 395
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
B3 may well be rated for 1.4tn on the hook, but you will very rarely see it done. There may be a few "pilots" that try it, but most "owners" will tell you 1.2tn and even less if you can get away with it.
Go on a fire with them, most have 900 ltr buckets... even at sea level, like we were last week.
As for altitude, i was up a hill the other day had to pick up a load that the B3 couldn't take, they told the client that it was 1.3 tn. Only weighed about 900 kg on my weigh gauge, and that was only about 6000'....
Go on a fire with them, most have 900 ltr buckets... even at sea level, like we were last week.
As for altitude, i was up a hill the other day had to pick up a load that the B3 couldn't take, they told the client that it was 1.3 tn. Only weighed about 900 kg on my weigh gauge, and that was only about 6000'....
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 126
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flowen both, the B3 cannot be touched for lift capacity, the 407 cannot be touched for speed.
The 407 became temp limited above about 3000ft (ISA +20) but still performed well up to 10-12000 ft.
The B3 still out performs it though there's only one thing that will perform like a B3 and that is another B3.
I have heard all the story's about FX2s out performing a B3....... Total horse sh!t.
At sea level or close to it a B3 will lift 1.4 tons it is at the top end of its capability but it does do it.
The 407 lifts its 1200kg limit but is also at the top end of its capability.
Not sure about the operating costs I just fly them.
The 407 became temp limited above about 3000ft (ISA +20) but still performed well up to 10-12000 ft.
The B3 still out performs it though there's only one thing that will perform like a B3 and that is another B3.
I have heard all the story's about FX2s out performing a B3....... Total horse sh!t.
At sea level or close to it a B3 will lift 1.4 tons it is at the top end of its capability but it does do it.
The 407 lifts its 1200kg limit but is also at the top end of its capability.
Not sure about the operating costs I just fly them.
Hey mlagersson....double operating costs, doesn't necessarily mean double fuel burn 
I plan 160-170lph in the H125 below 10,000' above 7,000' say at 810º or 95.9%Ng around 125-130kts 
==============================================
the enhanced 407 was here in the Top of the World ~ Nepal
didn't impress anyone at EBC 
2 up & outa puff at only 18,000' 
==============================================
Hey fadecdegraded.....nuthin' beats a B3, nuthin' but another B3
maybe B3e for higher & hotter, holds it together longer on Ng. But then without the pentrometer upping the Nr to 400 she looses Tail Rotor Authority quiet easily above 22,000' on an ISA plus 30 day 
==============================================
Happy Happy
I plan 160-170lph in the H125 below 10,000' above 7,000' say at 810º or 95.9%Ng around 125-130kts ==============================================
the enhanced 407 was here in the Top of the World ~ Nepal
didn't impress anyone at EBC 2 up & outa puff at only 18,000' ==============================================
Hey fadecdegraded.....nuthin' beats a B3, nuthin' but another B3
maybe B3e for higher & hotter, holds it together longer on Ng. But then without the pentrometer upping the Nr to 400 she looses Tail Rotor Authority quiet easily above 22,000' on an ISA plus 30 day ==============================================
Happy Happy
Join Date: May 2010
Location: New Zealand
Age: 52
Posts: 395
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
fadecdegraded, not sure if this was aimed at me...
"I have heard all the story's about FX2s out performing a B3....... Total horse sh!t."
but i wasn't in a 350 at the time when I had to do the loads the B3 couldn't.
"I have heard all the story's about FX2s out performing a B3....... Total horse sh!t."
but i wasn't in a 350 at the time when I had to do the loads the B3 couldn't.
Pentrometer
G'day Hot&High....the pentrometer is a nifty little device in the boom which is coupled to the VEMD's N2 governor. When the Power pedal neared the bump-stop it gave a signal to up Nr to 400, which gave immediately more Tail Rotor authority great when Your above 20,000' ISA +30º but sadly the B3e (H125) no longer has this 
VF
great when Your above 20,000' ISA +30º but sadly the B3e (H125) no longer has this VF
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Bodø norway
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Afaik, its called a potentiometer. It calculates an nr increase based on your right pedal position and speed of the inputs. I believe its still in the b3e as we have one at our company. I think this was a crossover from the 130b4.