Lack of radar service Offshore/Multilateration
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HC...thanks for the great reply...good to see someone who can take these comments without taking offence.
I recently did a familiarisation flight from the big north east of scotland airfield....and my word did the pilots works hard...yes they need to keep a good listen out!! They have to talk to each other...and the ATC bit was an extra bit of work. I also did an offshore trip recently...something I think you pilots should try to help us controllers out to do....and maybe try to get a few of you pilots into our den to watch.....I know its hard work....we controllers are just there with our headsets on listening to pilots and our phones....whereas you lot have over 4 frequencies to monitor.
Good to hear you weren't guilty....and do pay us a visit...I'll show you round!
I recently did a familiarisation flight from the big north east of scotland airfield....and my word did the pilots works hard...yes they need to keep a good listen out!! They have to talk to each other...and the ATC bit was an extra bit of work. I also did an offshore trip recently...something I think you pilots should try to help us controllers out to do....and maybe try to get a few of you pilots into our den to watch.....I know its hard work....we controllers are just there with our headsets on listening to pilots and our phones....whereas you lot have over 4 frequencies to monitor.
Good to hear you weren't guilty....and do pay us a visit...I'll show you round!
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"Got em on TCAS"
ATCO
The 139 drivers are aware that seeing traffic on our screen is no 'procedural' use to you.
However, how many times is traffic called at say 12 miles plus?
Not always easy to see with the Mk 1 eye ball. But with TCAS the crew's situational awareness is vastly enhanced. I guess when the crews tell you that they have the traffic on TCAS, then they do so to offer some reassurance that they are tracking the target. No more than that.
Please don't think they are then not looking out the window. But at ten miles with a rough clock bearing, looking up sun... Not always easy.
I can think of many time when traffic has been called (and response given), monitored on TCAS and never seen even though the crew are 'rubber necking' as if passing a motorway pile up.
With regard to 'listening out' things are getting crazy with regard to the 123.625 freq offshore. We now have aircraft coming in from Norwich, Denes, Humberside, and from the Dutch sector. I've known as many as eight aircraft entering, shuttling or leaving the fields at the same time. We have asked for that particular freq to be split but there is significant inertia to change from some quarters.
It’s easy to miss a call when someone is talking at the same time 'on the other box'.
Of course we are two crew and with two radios so we have one each. The radios in the 139s can be set at individual volumes (unlike the old 76's), so with good crew resource management we should be able to monitor and respond on both. I guess we all try our best but we are, like you, just human.
I would be interested to know whether the number of missed calls has increased with the introduction of G-CHC# call signs. I know that has done few favours for the crews.
Interestingly, if a crew changes airframe during a shift, (we seem to do that more often these days) the chances of missing a call increase. I have never worked out why having flown a different airframe earlier in the day I seem to remain tuned to its call sign. How many times have you heard “Anglia, good morning, G-CHCV... correction G-CHCT"?
We will try harder. Would it make you and your colleagues' jobs easier if we don't mention TCAS at all? A note in the crew room will stop it quite quickly, I guess.
In the mean time many thanks for a great service, we'd be lost without you. Some of us quite literally.
ATB
Red
The 139 drivers are aware that seeing traffic on our screen is no 'procedural' use to you.
However, how many times is traffic called at say 12 miles plus?
Not always easy to see with the Mk 1 eye ball. But with TCAS the crew's situational awareness is vastly enhanced. I guess when the crews tell you that they have the traffic on TCAS, then they do so to offer some reassurance that they are tracking the target. No more than that.
Please don't think they are then not looking out the window. But at ten miles with a rough clock bearing, looking up sun... Not always easy.
I can think of many time when traffic has been called (and response given), monitored on TCAS and never seen even though the crew are 'rubber necking' as if passing a motorway pile up.
With regard to 'listening out' things are getting crazy with regard to the 123.625 freq offshore. We now have aircraft coming in from Norwich, Denes, Humberside, and from the Dutch sector. I've known as many as eight aircraft entering, shuttling or leaving the fields at the same time. We have asked for that particular freq to be split but there is significant inertia to change from some quarters.
It’s easy to miss a call when someone is talking at the same time 'on the other box'.
Of course we are two crew and with two radios so we have one each. The radios in the 139s can be set at individual volumes (unlike the old 76's), so with good crew resource management we should be able to monitor and respond on both. I guess we all try our best but we are, like you, just human.
I would be interested to know whether the number of missed calls has increased with the introduction of G-CHC# call signs. I know that has done few favours for the crews.
Interestingly, if a crew changes airframe during a shift, (we seem to do that more often these days) the chances of missing a call increase. I have never worked out why having flown a different airframe earlier in the day I seem to remain tuned to its call sign. How many times have you heard “Anglia, good morning, G-CHCV... correction G-CHCT"?
We will try harder. Would it make you and your colleagues' jobs easier if we don't mention TCAS at all? A note in the crew room will stop it quite quickly, I guess.
In the mean time many thanks for a great service, we'd be lost without you. Some of us quite literally.
ATB
Red
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RED...wow...thanks for that reply...so good to see us anglia people are here!! Erm....well...i know exactly what you mean about the traffic info...we are so conscious of traffic info...cant see the point of the 12mile info...and I know sometimes how bad my 10 oclock can easily be an 8 oclock!!!and sometimes its not even a spec on the windshield. Keep up the tcas info...as you say...its so needed as we know you are looking in the correct direction.
Makes my day playing with the GCHC* callsigns....I always emphasise the last letter.....sorry if it sounds a bit OTT...but I always do it....PAPA....TANGO.....CHARLIE....and I'm sure you know its me as I laugh a few times in acknowledgement! Keep up the good work with us....and I know about the probs with the radios too....you can hear us...we cant hear you...
Just once with TCAS....a pilot said to me "anglia...TCAS has us clear of the other company aircraft....request descent".....maybe it did but my license needed 5 miles or window visual....
Thanks so much for that reply....I've been doing that area for so long now...keep on making it such a great sector to work!!
Makes my day playing with the GCHC* callsigns....I always emphasise the last letter.....sorry if it sounds a bit OTT...but I always do it....PAPA....TANGO.....CHARLIE....and I'm sure you know its me as I laugh a few times in acknowledgement! Keep up the good work with us....and I know about the probs with the radios too....you can hear us...we cant hear you...
Just once with TCAS....a pilot said to me "anglia...TCAS has us clear of the other company aircraft....request descent".....maybe it did but my license needed 5 miles or window visual....
Thanks so much for that reply....I've been doing that area for so long now...keep on making it such a great sector to work!!
Misuse of TCAS
Can I just point out that TCAS is a collision avoidance system, it is not a traffic management system. It really grates when I hear the opposition gloating that they "have us on TCAS". So what! you should not be predicating decisions to descend or whatever on TCAS returns. Whilst TCAS ranges are fairly accurate, bearings are not - they can have up to +-30 degrees error and that error is not constant, so its impossible to judge an aircraft's track using TCAS.
We are now starting to get 225s with TCAS but you will never hear me say "I've got it on TCAS". Very unprofessional!
HC
We are now starting to get 225s with TCAS but you will never hear me say "I've got it on TCAS". Very unprofessional!
HC
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HC...exactly!! The day I was informed by the aircraft that TCAS showed he was clear of the other company aircraft and wanted to descend.....I looked and thought no way!!! Look out of the window first!!
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HC
The guys who have and use TCAS (TCAS1 for the CHC139s) are very aware of its shortcommings. Ghosting (multiple images of the same return), images that move faster on the screen than they could possibly in reality, blind spots created by the rotors and landing gear, and would you belive it is unreliabe when used at the same time as the wx radar!
The concept, that with the introduction of the wonderful TCAS people are now never looking out the window beggars belief!
However, it is a management tool when used in context. I guess you will not (when you get your TCAS 2) wait for an RA before thinking about managing your way out of problems, with the info it displays to you.
For us the targets are there, right in front of you, on the MFD along with the radar returns, way points, rigs, aerodromes, etc. What do you do? Ignore them untill you get a voice shouting a TA or RA. No of course not. You manage the situation hand in hand with the radar controller.
I also use it daily as a management tool. When lifting from platforms where two-way comms with radar are imposible below 1000 - 1500 ft msl, it is useful to look for transponder returns within 5nm, before lifting to avoid having to us the system as an avoidance system.
The system may well shout and save the day when all else fails but that is a last resort. At that point the crews of two aircraft and possibly a radar controller have all lost situational awarness. Heaven forbid.
To say
seems a little high an mighty to me, or is it the green eyed monster getting the better of you today?
I guess when ATCO says
some radar controllers may also disagree.
Just a thought, but willing to learn.
ATB
Red
PS just a quick question. With TCAS 2 will crews be able to accept MRAS? With only 500ft separation we get TA's with opposite direction traffic (with whom we are generally visual). An RA will require immidiate action, will it not?
The guys who have and use TCAS (TCAS1 for the CHC139s) are very aware of its shortcommings. Ghosting (multiple images of the same return), images that move faster on the screen than they could possibly in reality, blind spots created by the rotors and landing gear, and would you belive it is unreliabe when used at the same time as the wx radar!
The concept, that with the introduction of the wonderful TCAS people are now never looking out the window beggars belief!
However, it is a management tool when used in context. I guess you will not (when you get your TCAS 2) wait for an RA before thinking about managing your way out of problems, with the info it displays to you.
For us the targets are there, right in front of you, on the MFD along with the radar returns, way points, rigs, aerodromes, etc. What do you do? Ignore them untill you get a voice shouting a TA or RA. No of course not. You manage the situation hand in hand with the radar controller.
I also use it daily as a management tool. When lifting from platforms where two-way comms with radar are imposible below 1000 - 1500 ft msl, it is useful to look for transponder returns within 5nm, before lifting to avoid having to us the system as an avoidance system.
The system may well shout and save the day when all else fails but that is a last resort. At that point the crews of two aircraft and possibly a radar controller have all lost situational awarness. Heaven forbid.
To say
you will never hear me say "I've got it on TCAS". Very unprofessional!
I guess when ATCO says
Keep up the tcas info...as you say...its so needed as we know you are looking in the correct direction.
Just a thought, but willing to learn.
ATB
Red
PS just a quick question. With TCAS 2 will crews be able to accept MRAS? With only 500ft separation we get TA's with opposite direction traffic (with whom we are generally visual
). An RA will require immidiate action, will it not?
RWB
By "traffic management system" I mean using the system, for example, to make a decision to descend through the level of another aircraft on an opposite track. Of course I don't mean as a general situational awareness tool - that is what its for!
The call "I have it on TCAS" is made for what purpose? There is an implication that you are modifying what you would otherwise do just because you have it on TCAS - that is my complaint.
TCAS II is fairly sensible about RAs, I would have to check the detail but I think if both aircraft are in level flight with 500' separation, you will not get an RA. For NNS out of Aberdeen, we nearly always have 1000' separation anyway.
HC
By "traffic management system" I mean using the system, for example, to make a decision to descend through the level of another aircraft on an opposite track. Of course I don't mean as a general situational awareness tool - that is what its for!
The call "I have it on TCAS" is made for what purpose? There is an implication that you are modifying what you would otherwise do just because you have it on TCAS - that is my complaint.
TCAS II is fairly sensible about RAs, I would have to check the detail but I think if both aircraft are in level flight with 500' separation, you will not get an RA. For NNS out of Aberdeen, we nearly always have 1000' separation anyway.
HC
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HC
No implication, just a conformation that you are aware of the traffic and are tracking it. When visual, a conformation to the controller seems good practice.
I simply don't believe crews are doing their own thing when under radar control just because they have TCAS.
I don't see a problem here, but I am ready to stand corrected.
ATB
Red
There is an implication that you are modifying what you would otherwise do just because you have it on TCAS
I simply don't believe crews are doing their own thing when under radar control just because they have TCAS.
I don't see a problem here, but I am ready to stand corrected.
ATB
Red
RWB
No, not when under radar control but in NNS there is no radar after 80nm (see thread title!), only a procedural service. This is where the TCAS boys (well, a few anyway) are using their TCAS as a traffic managment system, deciding to descend through oncoming traffic based on their TCAS range and possibly (God forbid) based on the bearing.
ATCO will correct me if I am wrong, but when under a FIS outside controlled airspace there are no rules for when you can descend IMC through another's level - this is why ATC don't issue clearances, they just say "nothing known to affect..." etc.
The lack of rules is in itself is a bad thing, but my fear is that TCAS is being used to reduce the margins that would otherwise be applied by comparing the reported gps ranges and bearings from Aberdeen VOR .
HC
No, not when under radar control but in NNS there is no radar after 80nm (see thread title!), only a procedural service. This is where the TCAS boys (well, a few anyway) are using their TCAS as a traffic managment system, deciding to descend through oncoming traffic based on their TCAS range and possibly (God forbid) based on the bearing.
ATCO will correct me if I am wrong, but when under a FIS outside controlled airspace there are no rules for when you can descend IMC through another's level - this is why ATC don't issue clearances, they just say "nothing known to affect..." etc.
The lack of rules is in itself is a bad thing, but my fear is that TCAS is being used to reduce the margins that would otherwise be applied by comparing the reported gps ranges and bearings from Aberdeen VOR .
HC
HC,
May I assume routing offshore is still using the Aberdeen VOR radial method....five degree radial separation outbound from inbound with a transition point at 40 DME from the VOR and via extended radials using GPS vice DECCA as it was done in my time there?
Granted Wellington would appreciate such a lack of change but after all these years...would not a different approach to the matter make more sense?
May I assume routing offshore is still using the Aberdeen VOR radial method....five degree radial separation outbound from inbound with a transition point at 40 DME from the VOR and via extended radials using GPS vice DECCA as it was done in my time there?
Granted Wellington would appreciate such a lack of change but after all these years...would not a different approach to the matter make more sense?
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I agree the TCAS is giving one a false sense of security just like what happened with the GPS people believe it blindly.
You would have thought in todays age it would be able to produce a Tcas which does not cost a bomb and works as it is supposed to.
You would have thought in todays age it would be able to produce a Tcas which does not cost a bomb and works as it is supposed to.
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Hi everyone....
Another ATCO in the "den" .... I dont work hels/rebros (as yet) but work good ol Sumburgh radar. (yes the dreaded 13 13!) . My experience (even in a radar environment) is that there is definitely an increase in the use of TCAS as a mini in cockpit radar. To an extent its great for a general level of situational awareness, however it may not show everything in the vicinity (unknown non squawkers etc)
With regard to missed calls, i'm sure markingtime will agree, it quite surprising how the workload can quite substantially increase for the controller, especially when working like a one armed paper hangar. It's totally understandable with the workload in the cockpit that calls can be missed, especially when your callsign is somewhere in the middle of the melee being transmitted. I find i tend to slow down my transmissions when busy, and emphasise callsigns etc, this usually focuses the crews attention i find.
Talking of bacon butties... heard one crew today apologise for a missed call, saying the cake was just too nice.....
If there are any leftovers, feel free to bring them across (but i somehow doubt there will be )
Multilat is on the way, an don't forget the new ATSOCAS..... cant wait for March! (and you thought the new ILS phraseology was a pain!)
Inverted
Another ATCO in the "den" .... I dont work hels/rebros (as yet) but work good ol Sumburgh radar. (yes the dreaded 13 13!) . My experience (even in a radar environment) is that there is definitely an increase in the use of TCAS as a mini in cockpit radar. To an extent its great for a general level of situational awareness, however it may not show everything in the vicinity (unknown non squawkers etc)
With regard to missed calls, i'm sure markingtime will agree, it quite surprising how the workload can quite substantially increase for the controller, especially when working like a one armed paper hangar. It's totally understandable with the workload in the cockpit that calls can be missed, especially when your callsign is somewhere in the middle of the melee being transmitted. I find i tend to slow down my transmissions when busy, and emphasise callsigns etc, this usually focuses the crews attention i find.
Talking of bacon butties... heard one crew today apologise for a missed call, saying the cake was just too nice.....
If there are any leftovers, feel free to bring them across (but i somehow doubt there will be ) Multilat is on the way, an don't forget the new ATSOCAS..... cant wait for March! (and you thought the new ILS phraseology was a pain!)
Inverted
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Yup...thats correct...with a FIS....we emphasise NOTHING KNOWN TO AFFECT......but usually get the reply of "ok....cleared to descend/climb"
I check the TCAS quite alot with you pilots.....especially when military 7001 squawks show on radar in close proximity of your aircraft....no mode c at times...and you dont get it on your TCAS.....so when you here ME asking about the TCAS...then this is why. It doesn't pick up on the A139's......
I check the TCAS quite alot with you pilots.....especially when military 7001 squawks show on radar in close proximity of your aircraft....no mode c at times...and you dont get it on your TCAS.....so when you here ME asking about the TCAS...then this is why. It doesn't pick up on the A139's......
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It's a long time since I did helis,as I tend to be stuck at the busy end of the room these day.
At our end of the room there is no wake up call for crews.You get it once and once only.
If a rebros controller says no known traffic to affect descent,then that is what it means.If there is traffic then they will get a position check to see if it's a conflict.
It isn't a procedural service,but a flight info service with some frills attached.The frills are that any other traffic should be talking to rebros.It is Class G airspace outside radar cover,and if you are descending IMC,then that's your call.The controller can only assist with traffic that is known to them.
The offshore environment has had a shocking lack of protection from the CAA for decades.The military can blast through the HMRs at any time,without calling.There is no requirement(yet) for TCAS,even though outside 80 miles it could be the only thing that stops a collision.As one of my Airline pilot friends called it ''pongos in survival suits''.I think that the CAA sees the passengers,and flight crew on North Sea helis as semi expendable.
At our end of the room there is no wake up call for crews.You get it once and once only.If a rebros controller says no known traffic to affect descent,then that is what it means.If there is traffic then they will get a position check to see if it's a conflict.
It isn't a procedural service,but a flight info service with some frills attached.The frills are that any other traffic should be talking to rebros.It is Class G airspace outside radar cover,and if you are descending IMC,then that's your call.The controller can only assist with traffic that is known to them.
The offshore environment has had a shocking lack of protection from the CAA for decades.The military can blast through the HMRs at any time,without calling.There is no requirement(yet) for TCAS,even though outside 80 miles it could be the only thing that stops a collision.As one of my Airline pilot friends called it ''pongos in survival suits''.I think that the CAA sees the passengers,and flight crew on North Sea helis as semi expendable.
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EEEEEEE...Throw.....it was all green fields when you moved to that busy end of our room....least I can still look out of the window onto green fileds with my feet up whilst ur flat out!!
