Engine Off's in R22's
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I have flown with both Mike Green and Jon Lane and would heartily recommend them both. I would also add that Jon Lane is not a risk taker but a very measured and professional pilot.
I'm sure there are a lot of good FI's out there who still do them, see the names mentioned in addition to the more famous ones. As for whether you should do EOL's in the R22, I think the answer has to be yes. A student/pilot doesn't want their first full down auto to be for real.
Draco, I would also vote for Glenda but the last I heard, she was in sunny Hawaii. Obviously the draw of the Midlands wasn't quite enough...
I'm sure there are a lot of good FI's out there who still do them, see the names mentioned in addition to the more famous ones. As for whether you should do EOL's in the R22, I think the answer has to be yes. A student/pilot doesn't want their first full down auto to be for real.
Draco, I would also vote for Glenda but the last I heard, she was in sunny Hawaii. Obviously the draw of the Midlands wasn't quite enough...
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When to demo full downs...
As for whether you should do EOL's in the R22, I think the answer has to be yes. A student/pilot doesn't want their first full down auto to be for real.
As an active FI in the States, I have to agree. I think a little before solo a student should be shown what a full down looks like in the R22 (or any helicopter) so that if they should have to autorotate they understand what the difference is between a full down and a power recovery.Full down autos in the R22 are easy to do as long as you are willing to take some slide. Where people start thumping them down is when they try to get really short ground slides.
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Paul, my understanding is that FAA CPL(H)s are not required to do full downs unless they get to CFI training.
In Australia, you will find full downs are a syllabus requirement for CPL(H)s and must be demonstrated by the student during his flight test. I have visited several of the top helicopter schools in this country and can confirm it does form part of their CPL(H) training.
Another major difference is that while our FAA counterparts normally land on concrete runways with long slides, the Australian pilot mostly lands on grass with very little forward movement after touchdown. This is achieved by holding off the flare until the moment you start to sink, checking up on the collective to load up the rotor, levelling ship and then full up collective to cushion landing. Most if not all the forward movement would have dissipated by touchdown, if done properly.
In Australia, you will find full downs are a syllabus requirement for CPL(H)s and must be demonstrated by the student during his flight test. I have visited several of the top helicopter schools in this country and can confirm it does form part of their CPL(H) training.
Another major difference is that while our FAA counterparts normally land on concrete runways with long slides, the Australian pilot mostly lands on grass with very little forward movement after touchdown. This is achieved by holding off the flare until the moment you start to sink, checking up on the collective to load up the rotor, levelling ship and then full up collective to cushion landing. Most if not all the forward movement would have dissipated by touchdown, if done properly.
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I often wonder just why most instructors with the option prefer to carry out EOLs to a grass surface. The robinson landing gear is designed to deal with downward force by allowing the landing gear to spread, relying on the cross tubes' flex to absorb this energy. The ideal surface, therefore, would be something hard and smooth. Concrete or tarmac is ideal. No chance of digging in and nosing over, and a surface that allows the landing gear to articulate in the way that it's designed. I'd rather pay for a new cross tube than a new tail boom.
And the sparks look amazing at night.
Allegedly.
And the sparks look amazing at night.
Allegedly.
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Mike Horrell is your man. Nothing flashy, definately no drama, measured, tidy and totally controlled. Always boosted my confidence after a few with him. Based at Conington Peterborough.
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I may be sticking my neck out a little here but, but if you are flying a Helicopter you may need to cope one day with silence, if you have not felt what is feels and sounds like, how will you cope with it, when I was doing my training at EGNH (UK), I was shown the full auto to skidding in the grass three times, twice in the R22 and once on the R44, and then it was shown how different it is in speed and feel in the B206, so in total the Cfi's did it four times with me, then whilst under their eagle eye and with their hands following everything I was doing I carried out two full EOLs in the 22 and one in the 44.
Whilst I admit to feeling nervous when I was asked to perform this it really gave me a boost in the overall feelings I had in my own ability to try and be a good pilot and made me feel that I could look after myself any pax and the Heli if the Donk stopped.
During the same period I was shown on several occasions what an engine failure in the hover was like again all the way down to the grass, along with the same on the B206.
Now I dont think my instructors were trying to enter the " Watch This" competition, in fact after I had been awarded my license I felt I owed such a lot to the instructors( one Lady, one keen young man, and a soon to be North Sea Puma man) who had been instrumental in teaching me and impressing me with the knowledge to join the small band of Pilots who enjoy flying Helicopters, like many others I understand fear, it is this basic feeling that stops me from ever taking risks. Although leaving the ground under mechanical means always carries a risk with it, I am sure all of you will understand what I mean.
My regards
Peter R-B
Vfr
Whilst I admit to feeling nervous when I was asked to perform this it really gave me a boost in the overall feelings I had in my own ability to try and be a good pilot and made me feel that I could look after myself any pax and the Heli if the Donk stopped.
During the same period I was shown on several occasions what an engine failure in the hover was like again all the way down to the grass, along with the same on the B206.
Now I dont think my instructors were trying to enter the " Watch This" competition, in fact after I had been awarded my license I felt I owed such a lot to the instructors( one Lady, one keen young man, and a soon to be North Sea Puma man) who had been instrumental in teaching me and impressing me with the knowledge to join the small band of Pilots who enjoy flying Helicopters, like many others I understand fear, it is this basic feeling that stops me from ever taking risks. Although leaving the ground under mechanical means always carries a risk with it, I am sure all of you will understand what I mean.
My regards
Peter R-B
Vfr
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Tis a considerable while since I did ab-initio instruction, but I would be interested to know whether VFR's experience is typical of what happens these days [in the UK]. When I learnt and when I instructed ab-initio on R22s pretty much every sortie finished with an EOL, if there was a decent wind. Is that no longer true?
The grass v. hard surface thing seems to be pretty much a "which side of the Atlantic" are we kind of thing. The disdavantage to EOLs on tarmac/concrete is that you wear out shoes and damage skids. I believe that places like the Bell factory fit special extended shoes. You certainly learn to keep it straight on grass or suffer the consequences.
I have over 2000 hours in an R22, most of it instructing, but getting on 10 years ago. This experience counts for nothing re: EOLs. Currency is the key IMHO.
The grass v. hard surface thing seems to be pretty much a "which side of the Atlantic" are we kind of thing. The disdavantage to EOLs on tarmac/concrete is that you wear out shoes and damage skids. I believe that places like the Bell factory fit special extended shoes. You certainly learn to keep it straight on grass or suffer the consequences.
I have over 2000 hours in an R22, most of it instructing, but getting on 10 years ago. This experience counts for nothing re: EOLs. Currency is the key IMHO.
Last edited by Helinut; 4th Aug 2008 at 21:13. Reason: Add last para
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beater, I agree it is no big deal to replace skid shoes and in fact it is a normal recurrent expenditure for all FAA helicopter schools in the course of auto training.
I think the Aussie mentality is that if you are unlucky enough to have an engine failure over any surface which is not a concrete runway, you can have a fair crack at it if you've been trained to auto onto grass. And there's a lot of grass out here.
I think the Aussie mentality is that if you are unlucky enough to have an engine failure over any surface which is not a concrete runway, you can have a fair crack at it if you've been trained to auto onto grass. And there's a lot of grass out here.
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more thoughts on touchdown autos
Paul, my understanding is that FAA CPL(H)s are not required to do full downs unless they get to CFI training.
In Australia, you will find full downs are a syllabus requirement for CPL(H)s and must be demonstrated by the student during his flight test. I have visited several of the top helicopter schools in this country and can confirm it does form part of their CPL(H) training.
Another major difference is that while our FAA counterparts normally land on concrete runways with long slides, the Australian pilot mostly lands on grass with very little forward movement after touchdown.
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the Australian pilot mostly lands on grass
Given that we are having the biggest mother of all droughts, most cities have been experiencing class six water restrictions, there ain't a lotta grass to be had.
Perhaps practising zero, zero's onto some sandy Beach would be a good idea.
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funny touchdown auto story
I was instructing in an Enstrom at one airport and a guy walked up and mentioned that he had flown in that particular Enstrom with a rather famous local radio station traffic reporter.
He described the flight he had and how much he enjoyed it, and how Joe had done an autorotation at the end of the flight. Feeling pretty good about my own abilities in autorotating I just nodded.
He then mentioned that at the bottom of the autorotation, they landed on the dolly (is that what you call it in UK/OZ? helicopter platform on wheels?).
In any case, I asked him: did Joe bring the power back in, and then hover to a landing on the dolly?
Nope - full down auto right to a landing on the dolly!
There were enough other stories about Joe (including his over dozen engine failures over the years) that I tend to believe the story...
He described the flight he had and how much he enjoyed it, and how Joe had done an autorotation at the end of the flight. Feeling pretty good about my own abilities in autorotating I just nodded.
He then mentioned that at the bottom of the autorotation, they landed on the dolly (is that what you call it in UK/OZ? helicopter platform on wheels?).
In any case, I asked him: did Joe bring the power back in, and then hover to a landing on the dolly?
Nope - full down auto right to a landing on the dolly!
There were enough other stories about Joe (including his over dozen engine failures over the years) that I tend to believe the story...
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Paul, I remember when I learnt my PPL(H), I was sent solo cross-country having only done power recovery autos. The thought still haunts me.
I only started doing full touchdowns to grass at CPL(H) level. I have never done one to pavement but I see the logic in building up confidence before going on grass.
As you probably know, the pavement touchdown is used extensively in Tim Tucker's R22 training video. I get the feeling that he wants the FAA to do it that way.
I only started doing full touchdowns to grass at CPL(H) level. I have never done one to pavement but I see the logic in building up confidence before going on grass.
As you probably know, the pavement touchdown is used extensively in Tim Tucker's R22 training video. I get the feeling that he wants the FAA to do it that way.
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Another recommendation for Mike Horrell at Conington. Completely drama-free full-down autos and a very modest, decent guy with 40 years in piston-engined helicopters. A great teacher, and hard to find somebody with more hours on the 22.
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Thanks for your responses
Thank you all for your input. As usual this topic tends to raise a deal of interest. Your help with pointing out the instructors to visit, leads to Mike Green, Jon Lane, Mike Horell and Derek Jones.
Are their mobile numbers and email addresses public knowledge? If not please contact me by email.
Some Background – (an ex RAN beefer) I have over 18k hrs helo, with >14k instructing in R22s. I teach all emergencies, and EOLs would be 80% of my autos. Auto can be cruise, after T/O, finals, low level 20’ or 500’ AGL hover (straight ahead not 360). Typically a student will do in excess of 30 engine off landings themselves by the end of their licence in order to develop their competence and confidence. All are given unannounced and touch wood – no bent airframes to date. I believe it is all a matter of RATE and ENERGY control.
I am looking forward to comparing notes and skills.
DMB
Are their mobile numbers and email addresses public knowledge? If not please contact me by email.
Some Background – (an ex RAN beefer) I have over 18k hrs helo, with >14k instructing in R22s. I teach all emergencies, and EOLs would be 80% of my autos. Auto can be cruise, after T/O, finals, low level 20’ or 500’ AGL hover (straight ahead not 360). Typically a student will do in excess of 30 engine off landings themselves by the end of their licence in order to develop their competence and confidence. All are given unannounced and touch wood – no bent airframes to date. I believe it is all a matter of RATE and ENERGY control.
I am looking forward to comparing notes and skills.
DMB
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Doinmabest
hey man, you wouldn't happen to have a surname commencing with T would you?
and a previous penchant for negative G maneuvres?
just wondering if I might have met you in a bad dream somewhere.
tet
hey man, you wouldn't happen to have a surname commencing with T would you?
and a previous penchant for negative G maneuvres?
just wondering if I might have met you in a bad dream somewhere.
tet
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Mike @ Conington
Had a test flight with him earlier this week.
Took the scare factor out of auto entry and then just a few feet from the ground I realised we were doing a full landing.
Cant see what all the fuss is about, maybe it was more him than me on the controls but is sure felt VERY safe.
I WILL be doing some more with him the the future.
Took the scare factor out of auto entry and then just a few feet from the ground I realised we were doing a full landing.
Cant see what all the fuss is about, maybe it was more him than me on the controls but is sure felt VERY safe.
I WILL be doing some more with him the the future.
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Mike Green - another recommendation...
Tis sad to hear that Mike has retired but, he deserves it!
I was lucky enough to do my PPL at Fast when Mike was the CFI there. Fantastic instructor and flyer, never left me with anything other than confidence and admiration. Most of my instruction was from Tom Saunderson but I took a handful of lessons, and my test with Mike.
He broke EOLs up into 4 phases for me which worked a champ. As he said, get it into auto in the first place and make at least a reasonable show of the flare and you won't die. For the last bit, he described it as a quick stop followed by an engine failure in the hover. That did it for me and on the few occassions after that I have taken it to the ground, it all seemed fraught but doable.
Mike also pretty much insisted that every lesson included EOLs and we usually finished a trip with one to the field, probably about 50/50 power recovery vs putting it down. I think I did 3 or 4 to the ground, always with Mike closely following through. Was never quite sure how much of a successful landing was down to me or Mike
He did do a real one at least once. He was giving an experience flight to a lady, I think in January with lots of moisture and nice and cold. He pulled in carb heat on the downwind and the knob came off in his hand! He figured that there was a high risk of a stoppage if he lowered collective so decided to come in over the field high and do an auto. Sure enough, when he dumped the lever, the donkey went on strike and he plonked it down for a 0/0 with no drama. I assume that the lady didnt know anything was wrong but often wondered what she thought when the blades stopped whirling and it all went quiet....
I reckon if anyone could get it down, Mike could whatever the scenario. Of course, the reason for this is yes, he's a brilliant flyer, but perhaps more importantly, he never put the ship somewhere he couldn't get out of if it all went belly up..
Cheers to you Mike. Happy retirement and thanks for everything you gave me. Not flying at the moment, cash flow doesn't allow, but do get the odd trip now and then...
Simon T. Thruxton.
I was lucky enough to do my PPL at Fast when Mike was the CFI there. Fantastic instructor and flyer, never left me with anything other than confidence and admiration. Most of my instruction was from Tom Saunderson but I took a handful of lessons, and my test with Mike.
He broke EOLs up into 4 phases for me which worked a champ. As he said, get it into auto in the first place and make at least a reasonable show of the flare and you won't die. For the last bit, he described it as a quick stop followed by an engine failure in the hover. That did it for me and on the few occassions after that I have taken it to the ground, it all seemed fraught but doable.
Mike also pretty much insisted that every lesson included EOLs and we usually finished a trip with one to the field, probably about 50/50 power recovery vs putting it down. I think I did 3 or 4 to the ground, always with Mike closely following through. Was never quite sure how much of a successful landing was down to me or Mike
He did do a real one at least once. He was giving an experience flight to a lady, I think in January with lots of moisture and nice and cold. He pulled in carb heat on the downwind and the knob came off in his hand! He figured that there was a high risk of a stoppage if he lowered collective so decided to come in over the field high and do an auto. Sure enough, when he dumped the lever, the donkey went on strike and he plonked it down for a 0/0 with no drama. I assume that the lady didnt know anything was wrong but often wondered what she thought when the blades stopped whirling and it all went quiet....
I reckon if anyone could get it down, Mike could whatever the scenario. Of course, the reason for this is yes, he's a brilliant flyer, but perhaps more importantly, he never put the ship somewhere he couldn't get out of if it all went belly up..
Cheers to you Mike. Happy retirement and thanks for everything you gave me. Not flying at the moment, cash flow doesn't allow, but do get the odd trip now and then...
Simon T. Thruxton.
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Simon,
Are you sure Mike G has retired????? My understanding was he 'retired' from Thruxton as opposed to ACTUALLY taking retirement
Last saw Mike at Wycombe and he's still listed as one of their pilots on the Helicopter Services website
FW
Are you sure Mike G has retired????? My understanding was he 'retired' from Thruxton as opposed to ACTUALLY taking retirement
Last saw Mike at Wycombe and he's still listed as one of their pilots on the Helicopter Services website
FW